TIME and TIME again I meet girls that try to set themselves apart from other women by identifying with men, hanging out with men and professing to be OK with all the fucked up stuff guys do to girls. This takes many forms. Here are some of the more common examples:
Yes, these things do get positive responses from men. However, in the same sense that any attention is not necessarily good attention (a lesson many men need to learn), any attraction is not necessarily romantic or even sexual attraction. The men that laugh at these comments or encourage your drinking feel the same kind of attraction for you that they feel for their buddies: casual, asexual, platonic camaraderie. If this sounds like the kind of attention you want from men, keep it up.
To put the phenomenon in perspective, consider a guy that tries to attract you by constantly identifying with you, hanging out only with girls, and professing to like the things girls like or do. I have witnessed a lot of men who do exactly this. For example,
All of this behaviour - in both men and women - is rooted in projection but ultimately is caused by a failure to differentiate between romantic and platonic affection. When you act like a man and constantly try to identify with him, you will attract him no more than the actions that I've just described attract you.
As obvious as it is, I think it bears repeating that men are attracted to women, not men. While they might complain about a girl who is "too emotional" or "a prude," there are ways of correcting feminine faults without reverting to masculine behavior.
- Having only or mostly guy friends
- Claiming that "girls are too bitchy and emotional, guys are just easier to get along with"
- Laughing at stories about guys treating girls like shit
- Scoffing at girls that get upset or "overreact" when a guy breaks up with them
- Being proud of the ability to drink a lot, or to drink strong liquor
- Pretending to be OK with just hooking up or just having sex with a guy
- Being proud of her one night stands, and telling stories about them openly
- Not making demands of a potential boyfriend because "it's no big deal"
Yes, these things do get positive responses from men. However, in the same sense that any attention is not necessarily good attention (a lesson many men need to learn), any attraction is not necessarily romantic or even sexual attraction. The men that laugh at these comments or encourage your drinking feel the same kind of attraction for you that they feel for their buddies: casual, asexual, platonic camaraderie. If this sounds like the kind of attention you want from men, keep it up.
To put the phenomenon in perspective, consider a guy that tries to attract you by constantly identifying with you, hanging out only with girls, and professing to like the things girls like or do. I have witnessed a lot of men who do exactly this. For example,
- Talking with girls about how "guys can be such assholes" (implying, of course, that he is different - which is probably true enough, but really beside the point)
- Being the shoulder for the girl to cry on when the guy she actually likes rejects her
- Admitting that he likes sentimental movies and even that cries sometimes because he is sensitive
- Pretending he likes the same music as a girl, even if it is gay
- Pretending that he cares more about her personality than her appearance - or at least (because it is at least conceivable that some men do care less for looks than personality), pretending he cares less about looks than he really does
All of this behaviour - in both men and women - is rooted in projection but ultimately is caused by a failure to differentiate between romantic and platonic affection. When you act like a man and constantly try to identify with him, you will attract him no more than the actions that I've just described attract you.
As obvious as it is, I think it bears repeating that men are attracted to women, not men. While they might complain about a girl who is "too emotional" or "a prude," there are ways of correcting feminine faults without reverting to masculine behavior.
Thanks for this post.
ReplyDeleteHave you read the various stuff on "the female dog whistle"? It's about the type of woman you've mentioned here, although the typical DW is not necessarily always masculine in her behavior - she just doesn't want to associate with other girls.
This might be coloured by my personal experience, but most of the time a girl proclaims she is "one of the guys", she is not. I know a girl who always hangs around a group of guys, and one of them told me she shows up uninvited and is not really part of the group. It's my impression that this is often the case - it doesn't mean she is disliked, but that a girl cannot 'fill' the role of a guy. I don't know any guys whom are comfortable discussing the EXACT same things in front of a woman as they do with other guys.
I am very comfortable discussing the exact same thing in front of a woman that I do with other guys - but only when it is a woman that I am in no way interested in.
DeleteThis might be coloured by my personal experience, but most of the time a girl proclaims she is "one of the guys", she is not.
DeleteThis could have described me in elementary school. I liked boys' games better than girls' games and really wished I could play them, but none of the boys wanted me in their gang. :P
But it reminds me more of a former classmate who actually is "one of the guys." Since I've known her, she has always did have more male friends than female friends--partly because her interests happened to be those which attract more males than females. (MMPRPGs, for instance, if I have the acronym right, and movies like Van Wilder.) And we all thought she was just a big tomboy until one girls' night when, after a few cocktails, she blurted out that she checked out "anything in a skirt."
I think that any woman who constantly identifies herself so much with men can become "one of the guys" . . . But they will probably never see her as "one of the girls." If you're like my former classmate, though, that's probably not an issue.
I noticed the examples of behavior you condemn deal with denigrating people of the same gender... except having mostly friends of the opposite gender. What happens if your interests tend to be rather gender-neutral or not particularly sought out among other girls? I actively seek out other female friends who are into architecture, economics, technology, neuroscience, observational humor etc and while there's a dearth of girls I've met who were interested, it has never prevented me from dating & relationships with intelligent, successful, handsome, & affectionate men who normally would not be attracted to Eurasian/Latin-Asian women. (Billed as the part-time chanteuse & comedienne & chef in various circles of friends puts me in contact with various people quite often, even on the days I keep a low profile / drop off the face of the earth, so this dearth isn't an issue of a small sample size.) However, while they were very kind to me & seemed quite happy I could present well with their friends, when no one was around they weren't keen on passionate discussion on par with the passionate sex. You'd think because they were passionate enough to start businesses pertaining to the aforementioned subjects, it would extend & be salient beyond a cursory touch in discussions with all their relationships, not just the business ones.
ReplyDeleteI am concerned that lacking an interest in gossip & other interests that require a social setting to be developed will distance me further from female friends (who are already slowly becoming acquaintances) in a way that may become a problem for the man in my life. I don't know if this is the result of living in an affluent, predominantly white beachside SoCal college earlier, but as much as I love fashion, the catty social aspects turn me off in a way that parallels how Tucker Max turns me off, so I stick to the aesthetic-enhancing /artistic side...
And there's one other big thing - censoring my sense of humor. I love dressing up & cooking - it's hiding my humor as a huge part of myself that's painful even though I know they take it in stride with the guys. Humor reveals so much about what people take seriously as a process of elimination, but using such a barometer to determine deal breakers would shrink my choices to the point of seeming picky. :/
Am I picking the wrong men? Is there something wrong with me I may not be aware of? Or is this a product of being a college-aged girl in the united states? What not-so-obvious interests (obvious = keg stands in combat boots to the musical stylings of NWA) are turn-offs? Am I mistaken in investing in appearance/mannerisms/signaling as a social lubricant so more (Monty Python) eccentric sides of my personality would not be vilified, or is abandoning those part of "becoming a woman"/adulthood in general? </3
- Serena
As long as you aren't doing it for the purpose of attracting men, it will be authentic, perceived by men as authentic, and therefore respected. If you have traditionally less feminine interests, it just means that you are probably the kind of girl that will attract (and be attracted to) a less masculine man. I would guess that very masculine men (think Gerard Butler or Mark Wahlberg) are less attractive to you than more unique or interesting men. Am I right?
DeleteI actually think authenticity can trump all the things that you list. While I found your list of things girls do to be "one of the guys" pretty right on, I found the one about guys being "one of the girls" hit and miss. For example, I cry at movies occasionally, and I admit this openly but I find girls find it very attractive. I've also cried in front of a girl I was attracted to while watching a movie and I found it made her even more attracted to me. But I see how a guy saying that he cries at movies in a fashion where the girl knows he's saying it to impress her is unattractive. It amazes me sometimes how good girls are at picking up on this crap!
DeleteBut after looking at the guys list, I looked back at the first list and realized the same was true for girls. I know girls who have broken almost every item on that list (with exception of the ones where the girl is showing no self-respect whatsoever) and are still hot as hell, and not just physically. I think as long as your authentic about these things they can still work out.
Still, I agree with the overarching theme of this post.
@Andrew: Yep, Gerard Butler is hot - sorry so late a reply, I was out of town visiting, coincidentally, one of the places he was filming a surf biopic in NorCal. A friend & former roommate just happens to work where he lunched on day, and confirmed that he's as good-looking in person as I suspected. He gets bonus points for actually learning how to surf where many professionals died, but being sensible enough to defer to a stunt actor after attempting more ambitious moves landed him in the hospital for some time. The other attributes make him particularly attractive is his versatility and tenaciousness. He's one of a handful of people who've cleverly transitioned from a career in law to acting. While the overlap in persuasion abilities is a jocular, occasionally-bandied stereotype... in terms of a quick thought experiment, try hypothetically dropping most random, good-looking people from the gym in the life of an early-career lawyer (or doctor, or engineer, or entrepreneur).
DeleteWhich is easier – translating the work ethic + skills involved in intense physical labor and/or knowledge work into what it takes to look good? Or translating the translating the work ethic + skills involved in looking good into intense physical labor and/or knowledge work?
The guy I’m with now owns & operates his real estate development business and had an amusing experience about when one of his workers deemed him an “Alpha Male.” That worker was a good-looking dude in his twenties who my significant other hired at the request of his client, the owner of the building he was renovating. Growing up, the building owner functioned as the worker’s father figure, especially after the worker’s mother died, and he often engaged in the regular “fatherly” responsibility of constructive criticism. That worker seemed like an SNL parody of MRA internet personalities. My guy & the building owner threatened to replace him with a more productive unskilled laborer (& jail time) until he stopped wasting the day blaming “modern women” for all sorts of problems & bragging about involvement in the sex trafficking industry. This was somewhat of a “goodwill” business move that came up when the building owner asked my guy to employ the worker in order to keep him out of delinquent activities (i.e. – improve the life of my guy’s client as adding value during a the rather hectic renovation process client for future development services). After the worker was essentially told he was full of shit by both men, he told my guy he was an “Alpha Male” because he was “able to hold it down” & went to work narrowly avoiding being fired. (*Facepalm*)
It’s really difficult to describe the kind of “masculinity” I’m attracted to – specific enough to maintain standards, but open enough to various manifestations. Using “masculinity” the way it’s commonly used is problematic because it depends on what kind of culture you’re referencing. Growing up in an immigrant household meant retaining a long-term orientation about decisions – including relationships. I don’t know how I would have a relationship with the type of guy who’s too sensitive to deal with life’s difficulties appropriately – if I was in danger/pain/a rough spot, would he (un)intentionally abandon me? I don’t know how I would have a relationship with the type of guy who’s too macho to do anything that can’t be accomplished with force, overt or otherwise – sounds like a potentially abusive ghetto sperm donor situation that doesn’t even make it on any sane person’s radar. That’s probably why “able to hold it down” is appealing to me and probably why there’s a mutual attraction – it’s a signal of fitness that’s hard to fake.
As for the guys attracted to me, do you mean in a short-term mostly physical or long-term relationship way?
- Serena
It's a difficult one Serina, i'm a Computer Science student and i'm genuinely interested in my subject. When I stay late with the guys to work on a project i'm much more interested in the project than the guys i'm around in the lab even if they're hot, which surprisingly some of them are.
DeleteWhile I get plenty of attention from the guys, most of it is from the jock type guys who are just hoping i'll sleep with them because it would be compliment for them if I would.. this is *NOT* a compliment, it's quite sad really. They eventually figure out it's never going to happen but it takes a surprisingly long time.
I do find a small subset who seem to be more attracted to me because i'm a cute girl who is really good at what she does. These are always more androgynous looking guys and i'm a sucker for that look, whoever said women in technical careers tend to attract that type of man is right on in my experience.
The big thing that tends to piss me off about androgynous type men though is how much nudging them with "green light hints" you have to give him before he will get he has a shot.
Unfortunately most men seem to be intimidated by a woman who is good at a technical subject like software engineering. The more masculine looking guys in the class are always trying to proove they are smarter than me, which usually results in them making a fool of themselves. Then they'll go and tell any guy they think likes me i'm a bitch and a slut. *rollseyes*
Honestly it makes me glad i'm bi, because I could end up with a woman and not have to deal with this rubbish.
YA...I'm going to have to disagree with this. Mainly, because every boyfriend I've had... I've met and kept for awhile(Yes, we are talking years) by doing these things.The trick is to create a balance of chill,funny and supportive(of "male" behavior) and flirtatious,Mysterious and charming. (Normally when he's not with his friends is when you do the flirtatious, mysterious and charming.) If you act that way in front of his friends it tends to make every one in the room uncomfortable. The guys will see you as a slutty distraction and subtlety(I use that term loosely) start competing with each other for your attention(which can be amusing to watch but not conducive to healthy relationship w/ your guy of interest or his friends annnd can cause a lot of awkward tension and unnecessary drama.) Plus, it makes them question if they can trust you or not. If his friends trust you, not only will they put in a good word for you but they will ask you to do things like help them w/ their female issues for example "I need to know her rings size but I don't want her to suspect anything what should I do?" Or "Why does she keep getting UTI's all the time? "Am I doing something wrong?"
DeleteHowever, it is true many men don't like to hear about your one nights stands (unless it involves other woman...thats almost always a safe bet.) . Granted friends share info with each other and trading war stories can be a fun way to learn about people(educational for guys too. A lot of men want to hear the female end of things)however, the rules are:
1.)No names,
2.)stick w/ the theme
3.)and don't be too harsh or judgmental
Guys learn their behaviors from their friends if you laugh or poke fun at something one male does in the bedroom chances are pretty good some of your male friends are guilty of making the same mistakes and we all know how sensitive male egos are. I was raised by men and it shows...but just because your a little more in sync with your male friends doesn't mean your doing something wrong. If he tell you that... then your not dating the right guy for you annd you need to let him go. So he can find what he's looking for and you can find someone that loves you for you.
I'm very happy with my current relationship. WOOT! Four years soon!
Andrew,
DeleteI disagree that women who are less feminine like less masculine men. If you aren't a little bitch, then why would you want to be with a little bitch? I would probably be considered less feminine by a lot of people, though I have long hair, wear subtle makeup, and yadda yadda. I do like the outdoors, I can bullshit about cars (because I genuinely know how they work), and frankly I'm better than a lot of men at traditionally male things. But I don't like women, and I don't like little sensitive men. I like masculine men that can do things for themselves.
Yes, I am capable of taking care of myself and doing anything I might need, but that doesn't mean I want a man who can't and isn't good at the outdoors or fixing things.
Also I don't think that making sexist jokes and chugging beer makes you much of a man.
I disagree.
ReplyDeleteI look for a girl who can do can identify with the male parts for a really good reason.
I want a girl that shares my hobby.
Which is fucking girls.
If a girl can't manage to share that with me, I'm not interested in having a long term relationship with her. I'm sure she'll be great for someone else, but she certainly won't fit in with my lifestyle of fucking girls.
well you sure sound like a keeper so maybe that's why you disagree
DeleteI would say i disagree to an extent as well. What I look for in a guy is someone who shares a common mindset with me, interests, taste in humor, etc.. Now yes there is a line to be drawn with a guy having too many of the same interests as the girl, but in that case the guy is either too passive or just pretending he likes the same things as she does to just agree with her. Neither of which are attractive, but those are the EXTREMES. I dated a guy who secretly liked chick-flicks and I was shocked, but since he was an Alpha male, that countered the "pansy-ness" so to speak and I thought it was hot that he had an ounce of romance in him. Bottom line, be the male version of me and it's a perfect match.
ReplyDeleteI second that!
DeleteGreat post- some quick questions- what is the difference between "hooking up with a guy" and having sex with them? These terms confuse me- Aren't there different levels of "hooking up" ? I mean you hang out with friends and at the end of the night you can end up holding hands with a guy or kissing one of him somewhere in a corner of a bar/club whatever, then there are the girls that let you get to second base.. and then there's 3rd and home run... how do men perceive women that give in at certain levels of expressing affection when they are friends with them? (well 3rd and 4th base is obvious).
ReplyDelete"what is the difference between "hooking up with a guy" and having sex with them?"
DeleteHooking up = 1st base through Home Run (kissing, manual, oral, etc.)
Sex = Home Run
"how do men perceive women that give in at certain levels of expressing affection when they are friends with them?"
It really depends on the level of friendship/attraction between the guy and girl. If you have been flirting/dating/etc. for weeks and you finally let a guy get to 2nd base, it is pretty appropriate. But if you express your affection for a friend by blowing him in the bathroom at the bar, you might be seen as a slut. What really matters is the level of commitment you (as a woman) have elicited from him. The higher it is the more respect you will earn.
@ Anonymous @ 02:59PM,
ReplyDeleteExcuse my naivety...
Do you mean you are looking for a lesbian? To have a long term relationship with?
Am I reading you correctly?
If so, you want a girl who likes girls to like you (a man)?
Erm...I thought this was a distinctly female problem of wanting the imposssible?
:-)
Like I said, excuse the naivety...
He was just trolling, ST, but you're funny, too. Hahahaha!
DeleteCan you elaborate on the "Not making demands of a potential boyfriend because "it's no big deal"" part a bit more?
ReplyDeleteOf all the traits the manosphere ascribes to women, shit-testing is the one I identify with the least. It would never occur to me to, like, get mad at a guy for being 10 minutes late or demand flowers etc on Valentine's Day. As much as guys complain about it, I can't help but wonder: if this is such a common female trait, does it make me seem masculine to lack it?
A lot of girls will let the guy they are dating flirt with other girls, or talk about how hot other girls are in front of her, etc. because she doesn't want to be seen as insecure or emotional - "girly."
DeleteIn more severe instances, girls will be dating a guy who hasn't committed to an exclusive relationship, and they will be afraid to give him an ultimatum ("either commit to being exclusive or I won't date you anymore") because they are afraid he will just say no and walk away.
In any of these cases, the girls usually deceive themselves and those around them (or try to) by claiming "it's not a big deal" whether he talks about other girls, or flirts with them, or won't be her exclusive boyfriend.
As for your question about shit-testing, no, it does not make you seem less feminine. And not all girls do it either. I'd say less than half of the women I've dated have done it.
So what do you think is the best reaction when a guy "flirts" or "talks" to other women in front of his date? Or when the guy ogles other women in the room? It can be disrespectful, yes, but what do you do as a girl, really? What do you say to him? I just ignore this sort of behavior. Is this insecure?
DeleteAlso, what if a girl says something like "oh, this singer/these dancers/etc. are so pretty/attractive. I love her dress/hair/whatever" on a date? Is that a sign of her security or insecurity? Also, how do you know that "the girls usually deceive themselves"? Maybe she's actually pretty secure in her own looks?
I've said things like that before to recognize the obvious and to acknowledge to the guy that "hey, I know you think she's hot, and that's fine, I actually agree with you." What I'm also silently thinking to myself is "But you're coming home with me, not her, so it doesn't matter". For the life of me, I can't decide whether I do this because I'm secure or insecure. Help? What would a guy think?
Also, by the way, don't guys know it's disrespectful to be on a date and talk/flirt with/checks out other women? Why do they do that? Isn't that some sort of insecurity on their part as well? I've always read that as "hey, I want you to think that I have options... but in reality, I probably don't, that's why I need to signal that to you so that you think that I'm hot shit." Agree/disagree?
I think your best bet is to just ignore his comments. They will go away. But if they don't, try suggesting that he go try to pick them up. Something like this:
DeleteHim: "that waitress is fucking hot"
You: "Yeah she is. Why don't you go get her number?"
Him: "Uhh..."
If he actually DOES go get it (which he probably couldn't anyway), is he really the kind of guy you want to be with? If he doesnt, he will probably shut up.
It's interesting. I did this when I was younger but I discovered just what you said, that I become just another guy and no longer feel looked at as any more. I have noticed now that when I blatantly tell a guy when he says or does something unacceptable, most like being put in their place and find me more sexy. Go figure :)
ReplyDeleteOMG THIS POST WAS A LIFESAVER. THANK YOU.
ReplyDeleteWhat if you just are one of the guys, I don't try to be one of the guys. my life philosophy is to just be myself if someone doesn't like me for being me that's okay. nobody will be liked by everybody.I just end up having a lot of male friends I guess I enjoy their company more. I have severe dyslexia and adult ADHD. there are more men with dyslexia than women I think. I really enjoy men's ability just hang out. in college I loved watching family Guy with my guy friends.The workplaces that really thrived have been one I've worked mostly with men. I don't brag about my drinking abilities.I don't kiss and tell, I find that vulgar and unbecoming to women.
ReplyDeleteI do have female friendships but they're more one-on-one we don't really share any of the same friends.
In college I really tried to get more female friends-I went through sorority recruitment 3 times and never got a bid. I'm not socially awkward or unattractive I work in sales I used to sell high-end shoes to wome you have to be likable at least on a superficial level.
While there are many intelligent women out there is a vast majority. I like to call girls who brunch the reason I call them girls who brunch is because I don't have enough girlfriends to go out to brunch in impact with the topics of conversation don't really interest me boys, clothing, celebrities the last time they went out how much they had to drink. trash talk men.
I am 25 I've never had a boyfriend people often ask me why, last person I told that to a couple weeks ago was shocked she said that makes no sense you're pretty and intelligent.that is the usual response I get from men and women about my relationship status.I really truly have just never wanted one,and when I hook up with someone I'm really okay just hooking up. and no man has ever asked me to be his be his girlfriend. I'm really happy with my choices right now.I just worry in the future I'll be so far behind and inexperienced.
The title of the post should be taken literally: don't TRY to be one of the guys. If you are being authentic, and find yourself slipping into that kind of social circle, so be it.
DeleteI wonder if one of the guys you hooked up with might have wanted to date if you withheld sexual interactions long enough that he had a chance to get to know you personally...
This is an excellent post. This "gender neutral, we're all the same" movement has killed or prevented the potential for happy, healthy relationships than most anything else. That is the root to most problems men and women deal with today in dating.
ReplyDeleteTruly, we're not all the same. As for the other part, men and women part ways when the characters they've have created in their minds that represent relationship satisfaction, don't match the character their partner has created as a Public face to The World. Both men and women have ideas of what they want from their romantic object and they look for players that will fit a "pre-written" role.
DeleteAlso, you might want to read Tracy McMillian's "Why You Aren't Married Yet". She goes into a lot more detail on things you discuss here. She has a whole chapter on not behaving like a dude.
ReplyDeleteI DO generally consider myself one of the guys. I only have one female friend (my best friend of 14 years), although she recently moved to the other side of the country so we rarely get to see each other. Since early childhood, I have had almost exclusively male friends, and I like it that way. While I am pretty feminine (I like makeup, heels and dresses, etc.), I definitely have more in common with the guys. While a few of them admit that they want to get into my pants, they know it will never happen (I'm gay) so we just check out girls together and play wing man for each other. I'm way more comfortable, sitting around with the boys playing video games and having a few beers than I could ever be going shopping or getting my nails done with a female friend. The guys have to drag ME to the mall!
ReplyDeleteAnother thing which recognizes women like these: they address other women as "woman". As in "quit whining woman". As if they consider themselves to be men mentally and for men to be superior. I have heard this before and it does my head in. They are way below both masculine men and feminine women.
ReplyDeleteThis description fits the "female dog whistle" exactly.
ReplyDelete"If you complain about these girls to your boyfriend, he will say you and your friends are being bitchy or of course, jealous. She is calles the female dog whistle because only girls can hear her. She is manipulative, would sleep with any taken man and lacks completely the sisterly solidarity (the female equivalent to the "bro code" ). She says she's a "bit of a tomboy" and feels a constant need to demonstrate how sexually liberated she is. She makes herself stupid to get attention from men (*baby voice* How do I send an email on this 'puter?).
The giveaway catchphrase is "Women don't like me and I don't know why". It means "I don't like women and I want you to think they're jealous of me".
She lacks the skills and personality to become friends with other females. So pretends to be "one of the boys", because it's easy to get attention from men, especially when "sexually liberated". She lives on male attention.
A lot of girls are gossipy, but not everyone, and for a normally social person, it is perfectly possible to meet girls that aren't bitches."
Guys can often see when a girl genuinely tries to be part of their group, but I don't think they spot these girls as easily..
Right on!
DeleteI am female, have lot's of gf's that I do things with, and I hate it when I hear other females acting like morons to attrack a man. Really, do they need to act stupid in order to get attention? Sadly, they have no self respect and love.
I'd have to agree with your blog about not trying to be one of the "boys" if a woman is looking to be involved on a romantic level with any of those particular "boys"; however, I never see any absolutes in my interaction with the opposite sex, merely sets of "probably'" and "most likely's".
ReplyDeleteI'm a female civil engineer/construction engineer working in heavy civil projects; so yep, I work in an almost exclusively male environment. Doesn't seem to matter if I try to come across as "one of the boys" or "professionally aloof" - there are always going to be men who have absolutely NO interest in me and there are always going to be those who are spellbound by my feminine charms. Not being interested in engaging any of these guys in a sexual/romantic way, being "one-of-the-guys" suits me just fine - most of the men settle on a professional"sisterly" treatment of me, in any case.
There a few who axes to grind, prowess to prove - who go out of their way to in one-up-manship; but whatever, there are insecure jackasses of both genders out there.
I am always amazed by other female engineers/tradespersons who do use their worksite as a dating pool - wearing provative clothing onsite or to construction meetings, oohing, aahhing and slithering around for male approval. These females are usually uber competitive with any other females on the project and spend most of their time and energy distracting the men. I find their behavior laughable - and in some cases, costs the project money, since some of the key players get soooo distracted by the "show" they can't think straight!
In any case, I'm friendly and social with the guys; no matter how non-sexual I try to be around them, one of them is going to push and push and push for his chance to get in my pants!
Hilarity!
ps - my guy is an artist - so we are the epitiome of gender work role reversal ;)
I believe you can have male-dominated hobbies, (be one of the boys in that sense) and still be feminine. I love video games, comic book stuff, a lot of the music that guys like and action/violent movies. A bunch of gamer guys grow crushes on me they just aren't what I'm looking for and make better acquaintances than lovers. And the masculine guys who aren't really into those things don't seem to care that I'm into these things. Maybe because at despite my so-called masculine interests, I also dress like a woman, act feminine, speak feminine--people see me as "soft spoken and polite" and it feels unnatural for me to curse unless I'm extremely frustrated. Furthermore, all my close friends are girls and I like cooking. Plus I don't encourage my male friends to treat girls poorly, I do the opposite.
ReplyDeleteThey don't care what you do, as long as they think you're hot. Everything else is a quaint novelty, unless you're equally obsessed as they are, of a particular interest and can offer something of substance on it, that they genuinely wanted to know. You can be a "comic book girl", as long as you're a hot comic book girl. Chemist, professor, doctor --- all admirable, as long as you're hot while doing it.
DeleteHow can music be "gay"? Is the music of a certain sex and it's pursuing other music that is of the same sex?
ReplyDeleteYou're right on one thing --- men like to be around women they consider hot, whether to be in proximity to potential conquests or because they think it's good trade dress for selling their public personas to others ("hang around hot ones, up the quality of my presence to my competitive peers!")and mostly because men tend to enjoy the aesthetics of human beauty, be it male or female depending upon preference. But men who are creative enough to open their minds to having female friends, could also be creative enough to understand why some women don't fit into the socially coerced expectations of passive aggression as a hallmark of womenhood. Conditioning leads many young women to play this game, rather than expressing when they're happy, sad, angry or confused over something and what might be the potential root cause of it. Hence, some naturally relate more to men because of this and don't feel any more obligation to go along with bad behavior from male friends, than they would from female ones.
I DO consider myself as "one of the guys". My father raised me alone, and did so without enforcing gender stereotypes. I was allowed to play with whatever toys I wanted (I almost always chose the "boy" toys), dress however I wanted and have whatever hobbies I liked. I had almost exclusively male friends during childhood, and that has continued through the present. With the exception of my best friend of 14 years, the only women I interact with socially are the girlfriends of my friends (and girls I date). I've always connected better with men- so I choose to hang around them. I'm confused as to what the big deal is.
ReplyDeleteWhile I have a very feminine exterior, I'm only about 25% female inside. Although several of my friends find me sexually attractive, they also don't think of me as a 'girl' (and yes, they've said both of these things many times). They don't alter any part of their personality when I'm around, and why should they? They're just as likely to wrestle with me or challenge me to a video game tournament as they are with the rest of our group, because they know that my gender doesn't define me- it's just a small part of who I am. My sexuality may also be part of why I get along with men so well; I can connect with men on a topic that straight women can't. I can sympathize with their dating troubles, but also offer a female perspective.
Some items on your list confuse me. The first two are simply non-issues in my mind.
Laughing at stories about guys treating girls like shit- Sounds like you need friends that are not assholes. All of my friends treat women extremely well, and on the rare occasion that they do something that's not ok, the rest of us (not just me) quickly make it clear and urge them to rectify their mistake.
Scoffing at girls that get upset or "overreact" when a guy breaks up with them- I know both guys and girls that have had serious overreactions to break-ups (I'm talking 'restraining order' serious). There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that. My judgement is not gender-biased.
Being proud of the ability to drink a lot, or to drink strong liquor- I don't measure my self-worth in my alcohol consumption (if I did I'd be in single digits), and can't stand those that do.
Pretending to be OK with just hooking up or just having sex with a guy - For some of us, it's not pretending. Just because we're women doesn't mean that all we want is monogamy.
Being proud of her one night stands, and telling stories about them openly - Again, what's wrong with not being monogamous? If men are allowed to share their sex stories, why shouldn't we be?
Not making demands of a potential boyfriend because "it's no big deal"- Some of us just aren't that clingy or into micro-managing. If you have to demand something out of a partner, then they're not the one for you.
I don't think a woman should change her actions in order to be seen attractive. If she genuinely enjoys spending time with men more than women, she shouldn't alter herself to be seen as a better potential girlfriend. The right guy will appreciate her exactly as she is.
I found your post interesting, well thought out and it gives me lots to think about. I agree that if either partner needs to "make demands" something is wrong, and you need to move on, no matter how hard it is. In the end we need to love and respect ourselves.
DeleteHere's some of what I observed at a time when I had a bunch male friends:
ReplyDelete- If you have a boyfriend, having male friends can come across as threatening to him. It's probably because they can read the intentions of other men better than you can.
- Men might think you are insecure and attention seeking enough to always want men around you i.e. an 'attention whore'. And you know that men don't like that because they imagine women who aren't really into them wasting their time.
- Men think women with mainly male friends are more likely to be unfaithful romantic partners.
- The guys you are friendly with will bracket you in a certain way. In my experience, it often isn't based on real shared friendship-centred affection, at least not at our age.
- Men will wonder how many of those friends you've slept with because being surrounded by men means you are likely to have more advances, since women are traditionally passive in courtship. This also makes other women think you might be getting around too much.
- It can come across as an uncomfortable power dynamic to some men. They might think you're the type of woman to seek a lot of power and control in relationships.
- Somehow this negates some sensitive femininity. They think you will be more critical of their fears and expect them to 'man up' in a relationship situation.
- To me it actually affected the quality of guy I was able to attract. I think it put off some of the better guys. I hate putting people in boxes buy maybe having more male friends made me attract more doormat-like guys...
So yeah not getting into that again. No way! I'll stick with my girlfriends.
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Another interesting post.
ReplyDeleteYour post says not to "TRY" and be one of the guys, so I'm assuming that it means a woman is not, and is pretending to be, thus torpedoing her chances.
ReplyDeleteSo, what do you do if you are naturally that type of woman described above? If you are not putting on an act, and really are more comfortable around men than women due to communication styles and interests? I seem to have this problem constantly.
You are right about "getting attention, but it doesn't mean romantic attention, or even sexual attention." In my experience, as long as you are a woman interacting with a man, there will most likely be SOME kind of sexual attraction on his part that he will explore, even if just as a curiosity.
When I meet people, male or female, with the intent to get to know them, I befriend almost with a "gender blindness." They are just people. If I like you in ANY way, I will be open and become comfortable around you. If I start to become romantically attracted to someone, my behavior will change a bit, but not much.
Problem is, I don't tend to romantically get attached until intimacy occurs. But if guys are viewing me as a "bro" or a "cool, safe girl," they will start to open up to me more on a personal level. I feel closer and more attracted, and cannot tell the difference at times whether the guy is opening up because he is comfortable and attracted and feeling the chemistry, or just "you're safe, Dude with Tits, so I can tell you these things." Plus, if the guy starts paying MORE attention to me because of the way I am, I feel less of a need to censor myself or "pretend femininity and aloofness" (which is not in my character), and so I become MORE relaxed and "bro-ish," but the guys are probably becoming more comfortable because I have been friendzoned.
I have had many great, platonic male friendships on my end develop as a result of this dynamic, but when it comes to romance, it doesn't seem to work for me because they have filed me away as "a dude." I have had a few guys who viewed me as "a dude" eventually become sexually attracted to me, but that's it.
I really don't like playing games in dating, but perhaps they are necessary. Personally, I think that effortless ease of communication and intimacy and comfort, coupled with chemistry, is what a relationship should be about. When I have this with a guy, plus chemistry (taken to mean "the spark" emotionally), I think there is a good foundation for a relationship and get hopeful.
The reverse problem also occurs for me. When I meet someone I am not interested in a a person, and am just friendly or polite towards, I am more aloof. But guys chase me for being like this! Even when I do NOT like a guy, and go out my way to...er.... repulse him, this makes him chase harder. I have no idea how I attract this type of attention though, without trying. It bothers me because whenever I DO try, I seem to fail, and then have these random guys I never paid an ounce of attention to following me around.
I have gone on dates and probably been guilt of the opposite of this post. I have tried to behave in the stereotypical way you should on a date. More reserved, slowly getting to know the person, mysterious. And this keeps the guy interested. But as soon as I become comfortable, my tomboy ways slip out, and the guys are turned off.
Onto Part 2....
Part 2, because I'm verbose...
ReplyDeleteI've been told by a lot of guys that I am "such a woman," but it is also refreshing that I can "get where they're coming from," probably because I approach the situations from a more RATIONAL mindset, and am pretty straightforward and honest for a woman. But again, these seem to be associated with "guy traits," and so I become the female confidante or the buddy. 9 times out of 10, I don't mind, because I like platonic (for me) male friends.
But that rare 1/10, I feel like I always fuck it up. At the same time, I feel I shouldn't have to pretend to be someone I'm not just to AVOID the "bro zone" (just like the article implies women should not pretend to BE the bro if that's not how they really are in hopes of winning the women.)
I'm wondering if, at most, I'm a bit guilty of trying to get someone to feel comfortable around me to actually "notice" I'm dateable, (but not by pretending, just by being myself). But by making them too comfortable, they don't feel the romance aspect of attraction.
Is that a woman thing? Thinking that if the guy feels comfortable enough to open up around us there is a connection?
How on Earth do I go about remedying this without BECOMING the reverse-- a feminine faker?
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What does it mean when men call women darling and they're only acquaintances?
ReplyDeleteThey're either being patronizing, or they're from the South.
DeleteOr they're fabulous.
ReplyDeleteQuestion, if it is feminine to NOT pretend that I don't have emotional needs, how do I present/discuss them with a guy without seeming needy/bitchy/dramatic?
ReplyDeleteYes, but be careful because often "having emotional needs" is more symptom of being with a guy who isn't that into you than it is an expression of your femininity. I sometimes think that if all women were with men that were right for them, none of them would have "emotional needs." (Of course, they would, but they would be taken care of.)
DeleteOpen yourself to the idea that he isn't interested in you enough: http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2012/06/get-used-to-rejection.html
Good point... And I agree... I am also quite concerned that he isn't into me enough, but when I walk away he continues to pursue me. At which point I have trouble communicating what I need from him.
DeleteI was wondering whaaat you think about girls asking their guy friends to hook them up with someone? Like can I tell a guy friend that I think his friend is cute? What if you kinda think this guy friend likes you? Is that alright?
ReplyDeleteHi Andrew :) Is there a post that you can direct me to that addresses 'correcting feminine faults without reverting to masculine behavior'? It would be realllly helpful for me... Thanks :)
ReplyDeleteThis ...blog has some of the most wierdest male species I have ever read of...It would probably be a laugh just to see person instead of reading most of the ...garbage...some men put on here about women...its mayb time for all you silly males to try having a good look at that person inside,and then try connecting that person inside to yourself..and being a proper male,and start talking sense....not garble.....from me...,..moodychops....
ReplyDeleteYour post was barely coherent, but I'll correct the first part:
Delete"This ...blog has some of the most wierdest male species I have ever read of"
Not the weirdest, just the most honest. These same guys would probably not be this honest to women in real life, for the simple reason that it would cause immense drama.
The fact that you used "gay" to explain a genre of music is more than enough for me to discredit any of the content found on your blog. I will stick to Black Girls Are Easy... that guy knows more than you about girl-guy dynamics. He's also funnier and more entertaining.
ReplyDeleteI would say being one of the guys (BOOTG) works or fails based on: How macho he is, and whether he is a narcissist. A narcissist wants a partner exactly like himself, so a macho narcissist would be attracted to a BOOTG. An effeminate man might also be attracted to a BOOTG, but only if he is NOT a narcissist.
ReplyDeleteOf course, this makes so much sense, it would be a sexual polarity destroyer and I bet that if women position themselves in the minds of men as one of the boy then it would have an affect on a subconscious level.
ReplyDeleteTheir was actually a man on Facebook before, who said "why do men check out other women when they have girlfriends"... I thought yeah right, pussy magnet, he was just trying to be just that but it really pissed me off because it was so fake.
I'd just like to put in my two cents :) As a girl who is "one of the guys", I have personally experienced being backstabbed/threatened/rumoured by most of the females I thought I was best friends with. My most solid group of friends are my high school buds (been friends for about 12 years), who I really do get along with even with the "guy stuff". However, I also ONLY see them as just platonic friends (even one who was once my boyfriend), and there is no need for me to be validated by them or try to get attention from them. I would never assume to be exactly "a guy" (as some girls do propose) but I just happen to have a personality that suits more with guy talk (but I also speak a little "girl" haha).
ReplyDeleteI think being one of the guys is okay if you're NOT trying to be after someone in that group. One of my closer female best friends is also "one of the guys" and is not attracted to any of them. We became close because we talk similarly, a bit "like guys" even when it's just us and there are no males to "impress". We make "guyish" jokes and comments and we don't relate to girly girls. But we also talk about cute boys and relationships etc. We just fit in better with guy friends. It's just how we are.
Maybe you and your friends are exceptions in this sense, but normally the desire to hang out with guys you aren't attracted to is an expression of an unfulfilled need to feel desired by men (the opposite is true for women, see my reply to the comment below).
DeleteIf you have no trouble getting the kind of men you want as boyfriend and can be content in relationships with them, then maybe that is just the way you are. But otherwise, give a second thought to the possibility that there is a deeper reason behind your male friendships.
What is to be said about guys that hang out almost entirely with girls? My ex is consistently the only guy out to dinner or out for drinks with a group of girls; this was the case pre-relationship and post-relationship. I always had the hardest time with this because I felt that he needed constant attention from other girls to feel special or desirable. I myself have many guy friends and think it is healthy and natural to have friends of the opposite sex but constantly surrounding yourself with friends of the opposite sex seems strange to me. It was upsetting because on numerous occasions I felt that he was treating his girlfriends better than me; when discussed he would say "well yeah, because I'm not dating them". It irritates me further because all of his girlfriends think he is the greatest guy and such a gentleman but little do they know that we broke up because he was seeing someone (a random) behind my back - a fact he will never admit to them.
ReplyDeleteIt's just as messed up as a girl who only has guy friends. It shows too much need for female attention, as you recognized. This isn't something you can easily fix and your ex boyfriend was bound to leave you, because that kind of need for female affirmation isn't the kind of thing any girl - even a "perfect" one - could provide. He might grow up eventually but be glad you got out when you did.
DeleteI agree with most of your points except two:
ReplyDelete1. Pretending to be OK with just hooking up or just having sex with a guy
I don't pretend. Sometimes I just want to have sex with a gorgeous guy and nothing else. Especially if they don't have much going on upstairs.
2. Being proud of her one night stands, and telling stories about them openly.
I don't see anything wrong with this. My friends enjoy hearing about my exploits.
*sigh* this is a sad, sad website and makes me glad that the men in my life are all Orthodox Jewish and that I will marry an Orthodox Jew myself. When a man has a connection to G-d, he sees people more like G-d sees them, not like pieces of meat with various prices and expirations. Also, Andrew, I have seen many men who date women who are ugly but are in love with them and marry them. What is your explanation? What is their plan, do you think? Are they just stupid?
DeleteI think the world is more complicated than what you give credit.
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Delete"Pretending he likes the same music as a girl, even if it is gay"
ReplyDeleteCould you clarify what gay music is please? Madonna? Lady Gaga? Cher?
Let me know
Andrew said: "The men that laugh at these comments...feel the same kind of attraction for you that they feel for their buddies: casual, asexual, platonic camaraderie. If this sounds like the kind of attention you want from men, keep it up."
ReplyDeleteAnd that's precisely the type of "attention" (read: friendship) that I want. I'm tired of the articles and advice columns that say women who have all/mostly male friends are attention whores, have "interalized misogyny", or just looking for large groups of men to somehow validate their existence.
Umm...no. Some of us are simply born with vaginas but have tastes in careers and hobbies (like tech, computer repair, business management, role-playing/D&D, and miniatures gaming) that are deemed masculine by current society. If I'm the only female in my gaming group, as has happened most of the time, that's just how it is. We actively invite other women...we'd like a more diverse group than 6 men and 1 woman! But after 5 or 6 sessions, the new gals always flake out or are suddenly "busy" half an hour before they're supposed to meet us. In 10 years of gaming, I'm literally the only woman who has consistently stayed.
Condemning a tomboy for being one of the guys, when no other gals step up to the plate to make the games less sausagefest-y seems rather mean spirited.
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