Sunday, January 22, 2012

Who Pays On Dates?

When it comes to paying for dates, the rule is simple: always assume you are going to split the check, and offer to do so. If you wouldn't be willing to pay for your half of the date in order to spend time with a guy, then you shouldn't accept his invitation to go out in the first place. So the first part of keeping the financial side of dates simple is not accepting invitations from guys you aren't interested in.

In most cases, when you offer to pay for yourself, he will refuse. If he doesn't, remember that your assumption was that you were paying for yourself anyway. He is probably just as confused about whether or not he should insist on paying, as you are about whether or not you should offer. Some men think they will offend the woman by offering to pay (by suggesting that she couldn't). Others have probably heard advice saying that they shouldn't so that you won't think he is too interested in you.

When the check arrives or you approach the cashier, always reach for your money. This shouldn't be theatrics or an attempt to induce his offer to pick up the check. Remember, unless he tells you otherwise, assume that you are going to pay for your half and act accordingly. If you get your money out faster than he does or get to the cashier first, ask him "so do you want to just split it?" (i.e. divide it 50-50 rather than itemize). This way he knows you aren't trying to pay for the whole thing. Asking him "can I pay for my half?" before he offers to pay for your half sounds presumptuous because it implies that he was planning to pay for you, when he very well may not have been.

If he refuses your offer to pay for yourself, don't insist. This heightens the confusion for the guy (see above). It also isn't necessary. If he actually wants to split the check he will accept your offer the first time. If he refuses to let you pay, reply with a simple "are you sure?.... thank you" and leave it at that.

If you are short on money and can't afford to pay for yourself (e.g. for an expensive dinner), tell him this when he asks you out. Say something like "I'd really like to but I can't afford to [whatever the date is] right now. Could we go [somewhere else] instead?" (the key is suggesting an alternative). At this point he will probably clarify that he is picking up the check, so all you need to do is politely accept. If he doesn't offer, then you've just avoided an awkward situation in which the time to pay arrives and you don't have enough money to cover your part.

Never offer to pay for the whole date (i.e. pay for him and yourself) until you've been out several times, or received some kind of commitment from him. While it is a generous gesture, it could too easily be interpreted as an attempt to impress. If he sees that you want him badly, he will start to wonder in the back of his mind if he can do better. It might also come off as an assertion of your individuality, which will not impress him. This is something women like in men, not vice versa.

If he pays, make a point to say thank you. While failing to do so probably won't be the only factor in a guy's decision to ask you out again, it can definitely be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Don't fuck up your chances by omitting common courtesy.

In general, stop thinking about dates as formulaic "events" for which Hollywood has defined the normal course and etiquette. A date is nothing other than two people who are attracted to each other spending time together. Neither of you knows the other well enough to be sure that the investment of time and money will be worthwhile, so neither of you owes the other anything - let alone paying for the other.

58 comments:

  1. I was a little bit surprised by this - it is the modern way of thinking and I suppose I support it, but at this point I am old-fashioned. I have never been out to dinner with a man who hasn't picked up the entire bill, but usually it happens when I go to the ladies' room (I come back, he's taken care of it, I say "thank you"). I don't go to the LR just to have him take care of it OBVIOUSLY, I usually have to go (at the very least to freshen up). IMO it's the best way - you avoid the payment/money subject altogether and easily finish it with a "thank you". Most guys I've been out with seem to have been comfortable about it, and not wanting to bring up money at all.

    I suppose if we actually were receiving the bill together, I'd offer to pay my share. But if I was out with a guy who's slightly older than me, which I usually am, I'd expect him to take care of it. I'd offer, but if he let me, it'd be a strong negative on his part. I can very well manage to pay for myself, and I have more available funds than most guys I know (I think they are aware of this and I don't know anyone who is afraid of not letting her pay. She's there in a Gucci dress and Jimmy Choos and you're afraid she'll think "gosh, he thinks I'm poor"?).
    I usually go out with guys older than me. It doesn't mean they're rich, but they'll mostly be 25/26 + whereas I am 21 - they are working full-time, I am a student. As I mentioned, I can afford to pay for myself, but I'd still expect it to be in the back of his mind that in this situation, he's picking up the bill.
    It's also a matter of sacrifices. The best dates are sometimes those which doesn't cost much, and we don't have to go to a fancy place. But if he likes me, I'd expect him to think that he wants to make as good an impression as possible and paying for me is part of that. If he doesn't, he comes across as a bit cheap to me, or maybe even careless. There are others factors in a man which are FAR more important in attracting me, but some girls care, and it should be on his conscience. If he doesn't, or lets me pay half, he's basically saying that he hasn't thought through his strategies with me or doesn't care too much what I think of him.

    I'm sure some will disagree with this in the days of equality, but it's still how I feel. If a suggest going 50/50, I'll do it with a smile, but the chances of a next date just fell enormously.

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    1. "I'd offer, but if he let me, it'd be a strong negative on his part."

      I am not suggesting that guys shouldn't pay. The social convention is still strong enough that it would be a bad move not to in most circumstances. My main points were that (a) it is rude for a girl not offer if the situation presents itself, and (b) offering as a default avoids any awkwardness when the check comes.

      "if he likes me, I'd expect him to think that he wants to make as good an impression as possible and paying for me is part of that. If he doesn't, he comes across as a bit cheap to me, or maybe even careless."

      It sounds to me that you are mostly dating men below your league. Probably you are good looking so a lot of guys ask you out. But I wonder if you would make the same demands if you were dating a guy that you were extremely attracted to - the kind that makes you nervous when he approaches. I suggest you try using the litmus test I mentioned in the post, and only accept dates from guys that you would be willing to throw down a few bucks to go out with.

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    2. And what's the point of going out with a guy who makes you nervous vs. a guy who doesn't? It's a philosophical question, really. In other words, should girls date guys out of their league or below their league? There are obviously pros and cons to both situations, but who's to say which one is the better situation to be in? That might warrant a whole new post, huh?

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    3. I'd be willing to throw down a few bucks for a good meal at a nice restaurant irregardless of who I go with :-)
      But if he does let me pay (or horror of horrors - suggests it before I do), it will always be a negative, no matter how attracted I was to him in the first place. If I'm out with a guy I'm really really interested in, it would surprise me and make me disappointed, because he's clearly not the guy I thought he was. Perhaps this is due to experience as well, and (coincidentally I like to believe), the guy's I've really been into have also been significantly wealthier.
      Some financial issues can be make or break. An example of that was a guy I was actually quite in love with. He had loads of money (family money + working full time), he wanted me to come visit him and was nagging about it non stop, I'd have to take the train which for this distance was quite pricey, only to stay with him a short while. I could afford it, but I was a student, and it should have occurred to him that I might not. In this case, I would have refused his offer, but he should have offered. Preferably he should have insisted on paying - I know guys who say "I want to see you", and sends you a ticket. He made the suggestion, and as we weren't exclusive, I felt he had a "good deal". It was not a deal-breaker in itself, but when I was weighing in the pros and cons for continuing to see him, this was a strong con. It also showed a bit of entitlement on his part. And even though I was crazy about him, he shouldn't feel entitled. I'd say he was my league exactly, not below or above.
      It's a bit the same with the check-dance. Insisting on paying is one of the few things a guy can do which both shows the want to impress and show interest, but at the same time positions you at as a top-tier man. It does not mean you are bowing to a girl or that she has the upper hand, only that you care what she thinks of you (which a guy should if he is interested).

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  2. Good advice- ladies should always be prepared to pay their half, and should be appreciative when men insist on paying the whole bill. However, for me and for many of my female friends, the guy not paying on a first date (and only a first date) is a considerably big deal, and greatly influences my opinion of him. For me, the guy paying is a symbol that he's a gentleman, that he's thoughtful and that he's traditional, three qualities I value in a guy.

    ...Of course, there must be exceptions (I'm sure many well-intentioned men have been given bad advice!). I will say, though, that the few guys I've dated who haven't paid on a first date proved to be immature and inconsiderate down the road.

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  3. But... but... but what about manners? I.e. "the person who invites pays"?

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    1. That is a valid point. If the guy says "may I take you to dinner?" then it is implied that he is going to pay. I would still recommend being polite and offering to throw some money in when the check comes; but you are right that it would be reasonable to assume he will pay in that case.

      But, if the guy instead just says (more casually) "let's grab some food," the situation is different. There is no formal invitation, or suggestion that he wants it to happen any more than you. True, he initiated the date, but it isn't a case of him wanting your time and you obliging, as it is in the first scenario.

      I think common sense goes a long way in these situations, but you can't go wrong by always offering to help pay.

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    2. this is tradition. what about 'no one should be buying someone else's attention'?
      this is the reason i go dutch most times, and first date imperative, because i won't know at that point what I'm investing in. however, allowances can be made for extraordinary circumstances.

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  4. Ive been following your blog for quite some time now. It is interesting to read and reflect on the cultural differences.

    I'm living in EE and we really don't go on dates here. If dates do occur (i have never been on a date nor have most people whom i know but it is changing) the general rule is that whoever invites, pays (there was a fairly big discussion on the media about that recently so that's how I know).

    But I'm commenting now because I just decided to do something crazy - I am going to ask a man to get a coffee with me. I am regularly working out at a gym (6 times a week or so) and there is an attractive somewhat older man whom I cannot get out of my head... it is butterfly bad...

    Anyway, it is very rare that strangers talk to each other and it is almost unheard of asking a stranger for a coffee (and especially a woman asking a man). So I am probably setting myself up for a failure, but if that is the only way I can kill those butterflies, I am willing to make that sacrifice and move on with my life xD

    I made some threads in some forums (my country's forums to get some cultural perspective cause my closest friends are American) and overwhelming majority of responses from women were negative (aka 'oh he is gonna think that you are crazy aggressive etc') and since you made a thread which has some relevance to my situation I thought it wouldn't hurt to get some more point of views.

    I am an attractive 21 year old woman (I know that since he doesn't know me, he will make his decision mostly based on my looks and I really fairly modest so I don't know how else to describe my appearance other that attractive) and he is probably around 35-40 or so and my plan was just to go over to him smile say hi, introduce myself and ask if we would like to get some coffee sometime... What do you think is this too much? Would he be flattered or creeped out?

    I know he constantly checks me out while I'm at the gym (just like any other man there... just the other day one guy got a hard on while watching me work out, it still makes me giggle, lol).

    I am sorry for going into too much detail, but what do you think? Is this reasonable approach? And to be relevant to the thread I obviously would pay for my own coffee.

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    1. As an attractive girl, if you are going to approach men, the only thing you really need to do is avoid being awkward. The rest will be easy. While I don't usually advocate that women pursue men, if you've already decided that you are going to give it a shot, I suggest talking about something casual first, before asking him to get coffee with you. If you see him there routinely, it would be better to start slowly, say hello a few times, maybe chat about where he is from, mention you see him there occasionally, etc. (this could happen over one, two or three different encounters) and then suggest that you "grab coffee."

      My suggestion if you do this, though, is that you step back a bit after making initial contact and going out for coffee or a couple times meeting up (whether or not they are "dates"). Let him take up the initiative. This is how you will know he likes you.

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  5. I suspect that a lot of women don't fully appreciate how big of an issue this is for men. Men who have dated for any length of time know that a lot of attractive women have a serious sense of entitlement and also pay the field, dating several men at once while expecting those men to pay for the entire dates. No man wants to be the chump who pays for a date only to have the woman leave at the end of the date and hook up with some other guy. A women needs to make sure that she isn't coming across as selfish or entitled, because most men will decide not to pursue a serious relationship with that woman - they might continue to date her to have sex/try to have sex, but they will think she is a greedy bitch.

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    1. if women expect their men to pay for everything, they'll need a strong jaw and a good tongue.

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  6. You really expect women to go way out of their way to make things easy for men, don't you? How about instead of expecting the woman to assume that the guy might not know whether to pay or not, the guy instead assumes the girl doesn't know whether to pay or not? This weird reverse chivalry where the woman is supposed to give the man the benefit of doubt on everything, but at the same time obsess over making sure her own actions don't give the wrong signal is really very tiresome.

    I do agree about saying thank you. That's important.

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  7. What if the man insists on paying despite the girl's clear willingness to share the cost, even though the meeting didn't start as 'a date'? Do you experts on men think this is a signal of the man's romantic or at least carnal interest in the girl - in other words, does it suggest that he eventually started viewing the encounter as 'a date'?

    Obviously there's no certainty about such things, but some people have more of a clue about stuff like this than others, e.g. me, so maybe clueful people can kindly elucidate. Merci.

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    1. It isn't definitely a sign that he thinks it is a date but it is ALMOST definitely a sign that he does. Let him pay, then don't go out with him again.

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    2. Aha. Interesting, thanks. Now, why would you suggest not going out with him again? Cheers.

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    3. I was assuming that you meant he tried to make it a date when you didn't want it to be one. If he offers to pay and you want it to be a date, accept his offer and thank him, then go out with him again if he asks.

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  8. Presuming he pays...and the girl thanks him for it/etc...does the girl also send a follow up text the next day saying "thank you for dinner/drinks, i had a nice time"? I am hearing mixed opinions on this. Some say yay, some say nay, as it reduces his need to feel like he is in "the chase".

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  9. Every man I've gone out with reaches for the check as soon as it hits and puts a card in it. To me that is a clear enough sign they are paying and I don't need to offer. Rather smile and thank them.

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  10. It's the man's role to pay, they should feel honored to be in our company, we should not have to be concerned, at all. It's a real sign of things to come when men are nickeling and dimeing. Men should be delighted to treat us, if not, they are just not that interested, or seeing what they can get away with, behaving selfish and immature. If they feel like they are going to resent that, then plan something cheaper and lower cost. No hard feelings.

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    1. I agree with this.

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    2. You are obviously a woman if you think like this. You need to realize that men get taken advantage of by women all of the time, which is why experienced men learn to limit what they spend on dates until they know that the woman really likes them. I think that if a man is really into a woman and knows that she is really into him, he's much more likely to pay for dates, but if he isn't sure whether she likes him, he is less likely to want to spend his money. Men won't go out with women to whom they aren't attracted, although some women absolutely will go out with men whom they aren't attracted simply because they are bored and want a "free" dinner or entertainment.

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    3. By the way if you really think that a man "should feel honored to be in [your] company," then you have a serious sense of entitlement. Few mature men want a women who puts herself on a pedestal like that.

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    4. I've never understood this logic. I have a job and more than enough to fork out thirty dollars for dinner.

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    5. I am not an escort and I don't think a free meal is due compensation for my time/company. When I go out with a man, I hope that I enjoy his company as much as he enjoys mine. I always offer to split the bill. If a man insist on paying, I would let him, but I would make it clear that the next one is on me.

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    6. I agree with the comments. It is outrageous that there are women who think men have to pay for their time and attention. Like it is mandatory and we should be honored to be in their company by paying all the time. I took an interest in you by asking you out. Is that not enough. Paying for someones time and attention sounds like an escort , etc. If it is the mans role to pay all the time than I wonder what the women's role is? Just to look pretty? If I was a guy that expected every woman to give up sex on each date because I paid than I would be a dog or an animal. I have heard comments like, "The nerve of that guy to expect sex." If the attitude is that a guy must always pay than as not to be taken advantage of the guy may be right to expect more. After all, Nothing in life is totally free. Point is that the entitlement and taken for granted that the guy MUST pay is ridiculous and as out dated as a woman being bare foot and pregnant, doing what the man says without question and having the mans meal ready when he gets home.

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  11. I think that a man who adores a woman wants to pay for the date. I find being courted intoxicating and would never date a man who didn't want to pay. It speaks to who he is as a man, as well, how much he wants to give to you, and what you could expect years down the road. This is the only post I disagree with- and similar advice books disagree. I feel like the "Why Men Like Bitches" view, that you're not his long lost professional collegue is right. ... I mean, I'm kissing this person. I feel a strong need to be treated like a woman.

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    1. I feel the same way about a women that has certain expectations. If she expects the man to pay ALL the time than you can pretty much assume that that is how life will be with that person, one sided. No compromise as they see it the way they see it. No sharing because the man is suppose to take care of the financial aspects. Being courted is one thing, being taken advantage of or being taken for granted is another. There is a distinct difference. Personally, I have never felt the need to buy someone or a date. A man feels just as good if the woman offers. It makes a guy feel that this woman really appreciates him. Most guys(Including myself) may take care of it most of the time. It is really not just about the money but about the mindset of the person you are dealing with. Both people have to feel comfortable with the person they are dating. Most men are not Donald Trump.

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  12. I believe a lot of the effort that a man puts in reflects how much he wants you. I actually stopped dating a guy now because we went on a second date and I asked if he wanted me to pay for my portion he said yes. The guy spent less then 20 dollars on me in 2 dates (about 10 dollars each because I am a cheap date and try to be because I realize not everyman is rich) and STILL wanted to make out with me.

    He was surprised to hear today that I wanted to be friends only. Am I wrong for this?

    AnonymousLilly

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  13. What if after splitting both bills 50/50 he gave you $100 dollars to make out? Sounds just as absurd as "If he doesn't marry me than he doesn't get sex"...

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  14. Does the woman's job make a difference? I feel strongly that whoever asks should pay as a sign of interest and also make it clear to avoid awkwardness later 'I'd like to take you for coffee' However, when men ask what I do (recent science grad with a Jr position), they seem to get a 'oh she can afford to pay for herself' mentality For example, I was invited to a movie,saw my date waiting,said hi and said I needed to get my ticket...He held them up and said he got them already. it was very sweet,I thanked him. Upon hearing what I did, his attitude changed and he went and bought himself a drink. Later on, he asked me to take him on a date (in a joking way) but I was not interested in further contact with him.
    This happens a often, the change in attitude. Unfortunately, I used to take this as a sign of him not being interested buthave been in several situations where the man thinks we r on a date while I believe we r just friends. Or other men who have similar jobs to mine ask me for an activity, we each pay for ourselves, and surprise me later with a kiss attempt. It is difficult for me to see whether they want to be friends only especially when I do know some do pay for their previous dates/gfs and I do feel as if it is a slap to my face that I am being treated worse than their other girls. So far, I change plans to free activities... Any advice?

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    1. If they are asking you out one-on-one, they don't want to just be friends. End of story. So that is your first hint.

      Also there is a lot of confusion from the male's side about whether or not he should pay: some girls might take offense, others might be attracted if you demonstrate disinterest by not paying (some men think this), while others are traditional and expect to pay. So don't ever read into the fact that he pays or doesn't.

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  15. Wow i asked my new bf about this and he said that he likes treating his girl (the part that hurt my feelings) but he assumed I liked to pay... Total bs haha.. I told him he heard what he wanted to hear BUT he was stunned that this gave out a friends vive and is sure grateful I planned free events and shared costs and stuck with him
    More impressively,since that talk, he has been picking up the bill even when I tell him I'll pay... Looks like he didn't wanna pay up if he was being used!
    Your words rang true again Andrew, if you're not willing to pay ur way, then ur dating down.

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    1. And I'd assume my instincts were right... He assumed because I had a good job and thought he didn't have to

      But he does say I blow all his other gfs out of the water... I showed him what I was made of and he's responded in kind
      Thanks!

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    2. I agree. The point is not the paying. The point is letting the guy knowing that he is not being used. Once I know that I have a woman that has my best interest at heart than there is nothing I would not do for her. Having the feeling of being used or taken advantage of is not a good feeling for any one.

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  16. This advice is very INCONSISTENT from your other articles.

    Your article is pretty much how to play up your gender role to attract a mate, so then why would I go dutch when a guy is trying to date/kiss/sleep with me?

    AnonymousLilly

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    1. If I were writing this post for a man, it would say: pay for the fucking check, every time, without a second thought - and don't ask girls out if you can't afford it. But I am not writing the post for men.

      The problem is that the rule of etiquette that says "men always pay" is virtually non-existent anymore. So by not at least offering to split the check, you look presumptuous and entitled.

      I am not saying you should pay. I am saying you should make the gesture of offering to split the check, and he should refuse. However, you can't make an empty gesture so you should be prepared to pay if he is enough of an asshole to accept. And if he does, dump him.


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    2. "pay for the fucking check, every time, without a second thought - and don't ask girls out if you can't afford it."

      -You have a way with words. I like how direct you are. And I just needed to say it.

      "if he is enough of an asshole to accept. And if he does, dump him."
      -I'm a bit confused. So on a date:
      1. Assume you are paying for your half
      2. Offer to pay for your half
      3. If he accepts, pay and never go out with him again?

      "He is probably just as confused about whether or not he should insist on paying, as you are about whether or not you should offer. Some men think they will offend the woman by offering to pay (by suggesting that she couldn't)." <----so we actually should not take this into consideration?
      Thank you.

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    3. @Andrew Lmao.
      are you for real? that would've worked some 50+ years ago, but i dare you to do that on this day and age..since you are a "man with options" i assume you go on dates quite frequently, so let me know how well that turns out. "serial dating" can be an expensive habit if it's always the same person picking up the tab.

      even in the case a man has got money to burn, it's still a blind bet. unless you couple that money with other desirable attributes, in which case the fact you can afford to spend on dates, pales in comparison. which is to say, money is important, as a physical representation of a man's ability to provide. but flashing it doesn't come as high on the list as many other things.

      and yes, i agree that you shouldn't take a girl out if you can't afford the full expected bill. as for myself, I'll be wary of what I'm doing with my money. me paying means interest rate has gone up.

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    4. Wow. Really? Sounds like a mental game going on here. I agree that this is some 1950s and 60s attitudes. The man has got to pay for dates and that is just how it is! Really? I beg to differ. Most of the good women that I have had in relationships chipped in. Not because I could not afford it but because we actually cared about each other. Sure, I usually spent more because I made more. It is the action that made a difference to me.

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  17. I prefer to pay if I'm out with a guy that I know I don't want to go on another date with. If I like him and I want to go out with him again, I let him pay if he offers. Which is ironic because in the first case I have to pay even though I didn't have a good time and in the second case I'm not paying even though I had more fun. But it's the guilt...I don't want to feel like I should go out with him again because he bought me dinner.

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  18. I actually like this advice. I've read a lot of books and advices from women usually, who say the men have to pay the first few times and then you can offer. But I actually don't feel comfortable going out with someone I don't know too well, and expecting him to pay the full bill. While I wouldn't feel comfortable paying for him either, I always bring money with me and offer to split the check, at the beginning of dating. And so far, I've never had to split it or pay for myself.

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  19. I cannot stand the "split the bill" thing. I expect a guy to pay for the first few dates to show his masculinity, his willingness to try to impress me and show that he wants to be a "provider", but I will insist on paying past the 3rd or 4th date to show good faith and generosity. However, I never suggest to split the bill, it seems so awkard and unatural to me. As in we share responsibility for what we both ate. This concept repulses me. When I decide its time to pull out my wallet, I pay the whole bill just like he did the first few dates. I dont know if anyone else is like me but I really am annoyed with offering to "split the check"

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    1. I prefer if men pay for the first dates as well, and I prefer that it isn't a meal. I don't believe in having meals with a man before we're exclusive because a man does not need to buy me food to impress me. I think you can be a little flexible though because many men don't know whether to pay or not because of the confusing mixed messages sent out to them about what they should do. But I would say that I wouldn't be attracted to a man who didn't pay because he had some issue with it, 'cause that comes across as a bit twisted to me.

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  22. I am one of those people insisting on women to pay their own half of the check on the first date (because the first date is a get-to-know-each-other date - I'm not yet convinced if she is worth paying for, on a second date that's a different story entirely). The women who filter me out (hasn't happened yet tho) solely for that reason or think bad of me aren't my type anyway and should seriously reconsider based on the following.
    Ladies, do you know what the man invests? Usually the man approaches, attracts you, makes you feel comfortable, all that while leading the conversation. He is the one to ask for your number, offer you a date and organises it, he will later be the one to kiss you and initiate sexual activities (in most cases it's the man's job). Now honestly - what do you, ladies, invest? Can't I at least expect you to take care of the costs you cause?

    An attitude like "the man has to do all the work" is just as old fashioned as it is lazy and dare I say exploitative (a little extreme, I don't mean it in an extreme manner, but it is just a little, you know), plus after the feminist's movements absolutely unnecessary.

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    1. makes me wonder, if it was the case of lesbian dating, if the one who pays for the date is the one who gets to wear the strap on later.

      ladies...please.
      choosing to like or dislike someone you have just met, mainly on account of them decide to spend THEIR money on you or not, is ridiculous.

      i pay for my date if i feel like it. it's not as if I'm gonna play daddy or hubby to someone i barely know.

      btw, when i do something for someone, i expect nothing in return but gratitude and sincerity.

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    2. You said
      Usually the man approaches, attracts you, makes you feel comfortable, all that while leading the conversation. He is the one to ask for your number, offer you a date and organizes it, he will later be the one to kiss you and initiate sexual activities (in most cases it's the man's job). Now honestly - what do you, ladies, invest? Can't I at least expect you to take care of the costs you cause?

      You asked what ladies invest in a date. It's not uncommon for a woman to buy a new dress (and perhaps shoes) before a date (especially a first date), so that she will look beautiful for him. Sometimes a woman will get her hair and nails done before a date too. Those things cost time and money. The dress alone probably costs more than he spends on her dinner. He enjoys her more attractive, sexier appearance. And since you mentioned sex, a lot of the time women are expected to pay for birth control all by themselves, unless it's a condom. Also wouldn't it be nice for her to wear some new sexy underwear or lingerie to make the sex more exciting for him? By my calculations, she has invested a lot more than the dinner he paid for--a new dress, perhaps shoes, perhaps hair and nails done, sexy underwear or lingerie, and birth control. Women invest far more than men in dating!

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    3. I totally agree with you. I would not waste my time and effort on women with the attitude of entitlement. The expectation that it is the man that pays all the time. I give it 2 to 4 dates and call it quits. I have had relationships where we both contribute. The biggest turn on to me is when a women says I got the next date or calls to invite me out sometimes. It shows that she actually appreciates me and has an interest. That makes me want to have something more with here if I am interested like that. I leave the ones that take you for granted ALONE quickly. I can guarantee you all women who have had an actual relationship with me call me a good man because I am actually a giver overall. However, I refuse to be taken advantage of.

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  23. It's funny how you're so old fashioned when it comes to a woman's sexual life (she shouldn't be sexually liberated) but when it comes to paying you're suddenly so modern and up-to-date!

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    1. Anahita Talebpour:

      Being sexually liberated is one thing. Having ridden the Alpha cock carousel is another. Most men these days don't expect virgin brides. They just want someone with a COMPARABLE sexual past.

      The majority of men only get to have sex with 2 or 3 women before they settle down with one. It is understandable that they want a woman who hasnt had more sex partners than that. They only want an equal. What is wrong with that?

      I have a simple question for you. Obviously I dont expect an answer.

      Why dont sexually liberated women, who have had their days of wild adventurous sex with numerous good looking, sexy exciting studs, marry the same kind of men they enjoyed all the sex with?

      You see, if I have had sex with 50 women, I wouldnt mind marrying a woman who has had 20 men. I would be so confident and secure in my sexuality that I would accept a woman with some history.

      Why do women marry the men who never got to enjoy the days of sexual gluttony that they did? And then complain that these men are judgmental and insecure?

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  24. Andrew, all -- 99% of the dates I've been on, the guys have offered to pay, even when I offer to split it. The one time I recall ever paying was in the early stages of a date with a guy who later became my boyfriend for 2+ years. We were at a bar and we settled on him paying and me tipping the bartender. The first date we went on, I paid when he went to the restroom because I need smaller bills for cab fare. He seemed kind of impressed that I didn't just sit there and wait for him to pay. I've also notice men taking me out, spending unnecessary money to impress me, then self-create expectations that sex will be eminent. That doesn't happen often because I've gotten better at screening guys I go out with, but that kind of behavior insults me.

    When I'm not on a date, I generally follow the income rule w friends, family, acquaintances, colleagues. If I make more money then them, I pay. I'll just grab the bill and say "this is on me."

    A unique situation I got into was when I met an acquaintance (who I also had the hots for, but he didn't really know, and we were kind of friends). I knew I made at least twice as much as he did, and I had no problem offering to pay for things. We did a mix of splitting bills. IF we went several places in one night, he'd pay, i'd pay, and we'd alternate. I'm not ultra wealthy, but money isn't something I care about. He has asked me indirectly how much money I make, which I've never responded to, mainly just because I don't talk about money, not because I didn't want to tell him how much money I make. Based on what I've described above, do you think I've exhibited behavior that is unattractive to the ordinary man?? Should I call him up one day and tell him how much money I make?

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    1. @Emily L exactly.
      it's nice to do, once in a while, something like that out of one's own volition, not out of societal rules and "game" tactics.
      trick is, for such gesture to be appreciated, it should be only sporadically, and unexpected. when people expect stuff, that's when (some) may take advantage.

      i personally don't think the behavior that you described (i.e. paying when you know you have more disposable income) would be any kind of problem, surely not at early stages - long as you are both on fair footing. if he feels like stepping up to pay sometimes, let him and appreciate the gesture - men do like to take care of their woman. as for talking number crunch and salary figures, you could bring that up once you're exclusive.

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  25. I met a girl through a mobile dating site MeetOutside and there it had a nice option to say if you will share the expenses on the dates or would pay yourself and things like that. This made the actual meeting a bit easier as I personally wanted to share it, and the girl agreed with my point of view as well, and made our relationship stronger.

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