Sunday, February 17, 2013

Female Game for Women in Their 30s

[This is the third of a three-part series that describes how to focus your dating efforts in your teens, twenties and thirties. There are links below the post to the other two parts.]

Female game consists of three parts or stages:
  1. Making yourself as attractive as possible
  2. Making yourself approachable
  3. Filtering out the men that just want to have sex with you from the men that want to date you
While these general stages apply to all women, a woman's age, experience and eligibility should factor heavily into her approach to dating if she wants to eventually find a man to settle down with. Therefore, various aspects of these three stages - or the components of each one - are more or less important at different times in a woman's life.

As a girl in your thirties, you are past or moving out of your most eligible years, and should adapt your game accordingly. Other women will get most - if not all - of the "easy" attention from men, so you need to narrow your focus and seek attention only from the men that matter. In order to be effective, you need to be honest with yourself and filter out the men who will waste your time - even when you are tempted by your emotions, pride or biology to do otherwise. Your efforts should remain focused on all three stages of female game, which you should achieve in the following ways:

  • Recognize that something is wrong. If you are in your 30s and want to be married but aren't, something has gone wrong. Somewhere along the line you made a mistake. Not you parents, not "society," not your ex-boyfriends: you. Maybe you've let yourself become too assertive, maybe you aren't in shape, maybe you wasted time, or maybe you believed the popular misconception that your career matters most. Whatever the case, you need to recognize that it is time for change. Acknowledging this is the first step towards fixing the problem - whatever it is. 
  • Revisit your foundations. There are a number of things a girl should do in her teens and twenties to be successful in the dating world. The majority of these still apply to you. Read the posts explaining them (the links are below this post). Understand them. Implement them.
  • Recognize your disadvantage. Men are going to be more attracted initially to younger and hotter girls, and you will get less attention because of it. For better or worse, this is the way it is. You can tell yourself repeatedly that you look "young for your age," you can pretend that celebrities A and B disprove the rule, or you can just adamantly refuse to believe it. In this case, I also invite you to resign yourself to a bitter, single future. The alternative is to recognize the somewhat harsh truth, acknowledge that it has implications for how you need to conduct yourself going forward, and get to work making a bright future for yourself.
  • Recognize your advantage. Most women do the majority of their dating in their late teens and through their twenties. Although these younger women have an advantage over older women in terms of appearance, few have the knowledge or experience necessary to date successfully - especially when they try to date sex-crazed and scruples-free men their own age, who have no intention of settling down. Most single women in their 30s have already suffered through these learning experiences, and can navigate the dating world far more efficiently because of it. As a woman in your 30s, you can go on more worth-while dates in a year or two than most 20-somethings go on in a decade.
  • Make dating a priority. Success is often a function of priorities rather than abilities. The people we often admire for being great at X or Y are often just the people who really enjoy doing X or obsessively want Y, and have therefore made X or Y priorities in their lives. Your failure to be married by 30 is very likely due to the fact that you focused your efforts on other things in your twenties: a career, travel, partying, etc. Change that. Quit your job, move to the city, get rid of your partying friends, or do whatever else you can to make dating a priority. As the expression goes, "desperate times call for desperate measures." Although "desperate" is probably an overly severe descriptor for your situation, you understand the point: you need to take more dramatic steps towards meeting the right man.
  • Avoid men in their 20s. Most men in their 20s - particularly their mid-20s - don't want to settle down yet, and certainly not with a woman who is in her 30s. Yes, there are some exceptions, but you are not one of them. Men in their 20s will want to have sex with you, and will play on your need for affirmation (as in, "Look, I can still attract a 25-year-old stud!") in order to do so. Avoid them categorically.
  • Avoid men over 40 who cannot explain their singled status with a specific and believable reason. Men who haven't settled down by their late 30s are probably not going to settle down. In fact, the threshold might be even lower than 40; but if a man hasn't settled down by then he is probably incapable of engaging in or maintaining a long-term relationship.
  • Avoid divorced men. If he did it once he'll do it again, and if it was "all her fault" he is lying; relationship problems always go both ways to some extent. Anyway, divorce only happens when it is entertained as a viable solution for problems or dissatisfaction in a relationship - both of which are inevitable. A man who is divorced almost definitely interprets "'til death do us part" with the addendum "...unless something really bad happens." The only exception to this rule is when the divorced man takes partial responsibly for the divorce: "True, she did X, Y and Z wrong, but I realize in retrospect that I pushed her away because of A, B and C." 
  • Avoid married men. It amazes me how many e-mails I get from women asking how to handle a man who is unwilling to break up with his wife to start a relationship with her. Trying to break up a marriage is not only dubious from a morally standpoint, it is also a terrible idea for the women attempting it. She is fighting an uphill battle, trying to get commitment from a man who (a) already has committed to another women, even if he no longer loves her, (b) has all kinds of difficulties that complicate leaving her (children, house, etc.) and most importantly, (c) can easily hide his lack of true interest in you behind his inability to leave her, e.g. the lie "Baby, I would commit if I could leave my wife but you know I can't right now." The truth? He just wants sex on the side and he knows he'll never have to prove his claim.
  • Don't be afraid of the nightlife scene. Some bars and most lounges are still decent places to meet men for you. I routinely go out and see plenty men and women in their 30s. In some places they are the majority. True, there are a lot of men there who are just looking for sex, but there are also more men willing to talk to you there than in daytime venues, and you have the savvy to avoid the ones who are only interested in sleeping with you. By being selective about where you go, and leaving before men's drunkenness is in full effect, you dramatically increase your chances of meeting decent men in nightlife venues. I am not saying you should neglect other social opportunities in order to hit the bars, but if there isn't anything else going on in the evening, don't use "I am too old" as an excuse.
  • Continue to improve your appearance. The vast majority of women in their 30s will be able to look better a year from now than they do today, simply by working to improve their appearance. You might think that you've already "perfected" your look, when the reality is that you've just come to terms with it. Do you dress and do your make up like the 30-something models you see in clothing magazines? Are you in perfect shape? Do you understand your complexion perfectly? Etc.
  • Filter, filter, filter. Leverage your life experience or dating experience to recognize immediately the men who just want sex, or are uncertain of their future with you. They are wasting your limited time. Treat them like the leeches they are: cut them off, and make time in your life for the men who are interested in you as a person.
  • Do not get fat. This is critical. Your figure is crucial to your attractiveness, and you have too many other things working against you to give up control of it. If you are single, over 30 and getting fat, you are pretty much screwed. At best you will have to settle for a sloppy man who doesn't respect himself, doesn't attract you, and doesn't find you attractive. This might be an unfortunate truth, but it is a truth nonetheless. Do not get fat.
  • Do not "hang in there." While it was reasonable for your college boyfriend to delay proposing until he graduated or got a steady job, there is no such excuse at your age. A relationship should escalate continually (even if it escalates slowly) until he proposes. There should be no "plateau" or "lag" in intimacy until well after marriage. An excuse about wanting to wait at your age is merely a guise for his indecision. Once he starts to doubt his future with you, I promise that it is the beginning of the end. Make it the end of the end by beating him to the punch and breaking up with him. If he was mistaken, he will ask for you back.
  • Stay in shape. I realize I am repeating myself. I am doing so because it is important. As a woman ages, her fitness becomes increasingly important, because it increasingly sets her apart from other women. By staying (or getting) in shape while most other women are starting to fall off the fitness cliff, you will crush the competition. Unless you are already a nutrition, diet and exercise freak, staying in shape will almost certainly require that you become one. But the satisfaction you were used to getting from food will soon be replaced by satisfaction from your relationships with men.

As you can tell from the number of bullet points above that start with "Avoid" and "Recognize," the overarching themes for dating in your 30s (with the intent of marriage) are filtering and acceptance. In other words, screening out the men who aren't interested in a serious relationship, and accepting the fact that you are in a tough situation that necessitates stepping up your game.


Related Posts

281 comments:

  1. Most of this post is good advice but the pool of men you advise to avoid leaves someone even in their early to mid thirties with a small range of men to choose from, especially if you apply the guideline that the man should be ideally 3-6 years older than you.

    I feel excluding men over 40 and divorced men is going to make a difficult task impossible,although I can understand your reasoning.

    It is increasingly hard for marriage minded women to settle down even in their mid/late twenties as men can satisfy their needs without committing to marriage.
    But overall advice appreciated.

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    1. "the pool of men you advise to avoid leaves someone even in their early to mid thirties with a small range of men to choose from, especially if you apply the guideline that the man should be ideally 3-6 years older than you"

      This is exactly WHY it is tough situation. I will say that the 3-6 year ideal is less important in your 30s, since men over 30 are more inclined to settle down.

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    2. I wouldn't exclude divorced men. Especially if he is 40+ and actually gave marriage a real shot before it ended.
      Divorce rates are awfully high in the US so a great amount of single men over a certain age are divorced. However the amount of "serial husbands" is smaller - plenty of second marriages are for life. Men who end up having plenty of marriage throughout life are in minority. I see friends of my parents who got married very young for the wrong reasons and found a new wife late in life, and the have remained together.

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  2. Thanks so much for the post Andrew! Usually the only place to get this kind of info is via the manosphere, but it comes with the price of being pretty brutal (and eventually demoralizing) to read. I really appreciate you managing to be candid about this topic in a way that still gives us a ray of hope :). And I was waiting for the "Women in Their 30s" edition :).

    I'm 34, so when dating I'm usually thinking 34-39 as being ideal, but since 34-39 is the most desirable age group for men (and I can't necessarily compete with younger women for the most desirable men), then I look at divorced 40-44 as being the next best way to use my time wisely. It was based on something I read that said never married men over 40 are far less likely to marry than divorced men over 40.

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    1. I wouldn't rule out men between 34 and 39. They are within your grasp. See my comment above at 12:45.

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    2. Andrew, someone like you should not have children. I'd get the tubes cut if I were you because that level of analness and narrow-mindedness would make for a fucked up kid. None of this stuff is an exact science, and I guess you're generalizing, but I hope you don't believe what you do with such precision. I would love to see the type of woman you're dating. I bet she meets less than 50% of what you describe as desirable, and I bet you don't either. General comment. Wrt this post, my best friends parents have been happily married for 25+ years. Her mom is 2 years older than the dad, and they are perfect. Rather than proclaim that there are exceptions to this "rule" perhaps consider that there's a universe of possibilities, and, particularly in this example, there are a number of possible outcomes. For example, I think you have an older sister. How old is she and is she single? Would you tell your sister that she should only dates in a 5 year window of ages?

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    3. Anonymous @ Feb 17, 2013, @ 2:17 PM

      While I'm not sure if it's possible for any of the posters on this forum to have an informed opinion on how Andrew might be as a parent since most of us don't actually know him, I thought your comment,"rather than proclaim that there are exceptions to this "rule" perhaps consider that there's a universe of possibilities, and, particularly in this example, there are a number of possible outcomes," was well put.

      Andrew claims that "yes, there are some exceptions, but you are not one of them," but I just wonder how someone would be able to determine that when they have not met the individuals who they claim are "not one" of the exceptions, and when they do not know of said individuals' situation and circumstances.



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    4. Anon 2:17, what you said about Andrew is cruel on a personal level. How would you feel if someone says that to your face when he/she disagrees with you about something? Please keep the venom to yourself.

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    5. @ Anonymous 2:17 PM

      The fact that you are so upset about the rule is evidence of the fact that you believe it to some extent, and that it has some undesirable personal implications for you. If you knew it was completely false, you would have simply laughed, navigated to another blog, and forgotten about it. But something compelled you to make a comment.

      Look, no one here is arguing that it is actually better for a woman to always date older men. And no one is claiming that there are absolutely no exceptions to the age "rule." The only real question is how frequently the exceptions occur; and all of us are going to answer that question differently, on little more than our own personal experience.

      So believe what you want. But at least take away the point that age matters, and try to be honest with yourself about how much. Let's leave it at that.

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    6. Not sure how credible this is, but it shows the average age of marriage back to 1890. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005061.html

      Looks like late 20s is the median age. Notwithstanding all of that, you can probably tell when screwed up people had screwed up parents. Wouldn't categorize a person in that way, though it sounds like you don't agree with Andrew. Just a hunch.

      Here is another http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-11-09-delayed-marriage_N.htm

      I agree and disagree with Andrew. I agree that the average/median ages are accurate, but just like an exam in college, it's just an average. I disagree with assigning numbers or at least being strict about the numbers. It's more important to marry the right person than marry out of a statistical obligation. My mom is a year older than my dad. They got married in their late 20s. One of my best friends is in his early 40s. He is not married. He is unmarried because the woman he wanted to marry had breast cancer and died. I've had two men ask me to marry them (at 23 and 26) and I turned both of them down because it didn't feel right. So my point is that there are generalities, which may be different from reality.

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    7. Shocking how Anonymous @ Feb 17, 2013, @ 2:17 PM doesn't understand probabilities. While there are always outliers, Andrew addressed this topic in a truthful manner. Sure, your best friend's neighbor's 34yo sister snagged a tall, handsome, single, 35yo doctor who proposed to her after a year, but the odds of you finding that are like hitting the lottery.

      30+yo women, either hold on to your lottery ticket and hope for the best or face reality.

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    8. It wasn't my "best friend's neighbor's 34yo sister snagged a tall, handsome, single, 35yo doctor who proposed to her after a year" but I do know of many other such matches. You don't know me, so you can't possibly come to the conclusion that my "odds of me finding that are like hitting the lottery."

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    9. No, I don't know you, nor does anyone else since you posted as "Anonymous". But please, continue to make yourself look foolish and delusional in this case and in your knowledge of outcomes and probabilities (and sure you know many other such matches). It would be one thing if this post was directed specifically to you and your cohort, but it's not. You're viewpoint is at best misinformed, and at worst harmful, to a majority of 30+yo women who are looking to get married and may not be you.

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    10. Jason773- I am not making myself look foolish and delusional because I am NOT. Again, you don't know me, so you can't come to that conclusion. Nor is my viewpoint intended to be harmful. I believe in probabilities to an extent, and I do think it would be a good idea for people to consider them, I just don't believe they should base their whole lives on it, because the probability is not always right.

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    11. What kind of woman would spit out words such as "you better tie your tubes because you should not have kids" in the context of an online discussion about relationships? That level of bitterness is hard to find. More reason why we should take our time in getting to know someone. :-)

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  3. "Recognize that something is wrong."

    This is the hardest thing for women to admit. So many build up walls to not confront it, and it actually makes them less attractive.

    At some point you just have to admit that, "I'm single because I was a hoe/bitch for most of my 20s." Then try to change.

    Girls in their early 30s still have some value, but you need to be perfect.

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  4. This is a good post. I am 37 and I can tell you that my other guy friends generally don't want women in their mid-30s unless those women are exceptionally attractive. In my mind, dating was so much easier for a woman around my age than it has been for the men, so we automatically assume, rightly or wrongly, that the women our age have slept around and are now only interested in snagging a man for marriage because the quality of man they can sleep around with has decreased their the woman's age. My friends and I are white collar professionals who spent a lot of time in school and worked like dogs throughout our 20s and into our early 30s. We are now at a place where we make good money, aren't working the way we used to, and would like to find a woman to settle down with.

    One of the biggest issues I have with women particularly in their mid-30s is that they have really, really crappy attitudes and almost seem more entitled than younger women. One would think that a woman in her mid-30s would realize that her time is running out and would therefore be on her best behavior and would want to give a man a reason why he should want to be with her, but in my experience this is just not true. Perhaps these women are used to dating men well out of their league who only use them for sex and that warped their view of what kind of man they "deserve." These women don't seem to realize that even if they were hot at 25 and men tolerated a certain level of attitude at that point, they aren't nearly as hot at 35 and men no longer put up with their crap.

    A woman in her 30s should be going for a stable man 5-10 years older. Unless she is exceptionally attractive, most men her age will be able to get a younger and more attractive woman, so she needs to go older. Men also assume that a woman in her mid-30s is more likely to have pregnancy difficulties than a younger woman, so that also makes the mid-30s woman less attractive.

    I have noticed that at my age women in their late 20s who meet me are attracted to me, so I personally wouldn't settle for a mid-30s woman unless she was almost perfect and I think that most of my peers feel the same way.

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    1. Agree 100%
      I spent my 20's in school and busting ass. No cruising along in the salad years. Very little travel outside of work. I basically worked, took care of my extended family, and stayed fit. I wasn't hitting clubs or chasing tail for ONS and no-strings sex, though I had plenty of opportunities. For a number of years I was in a LTR that dissolved. So be it. But at this point (39), I'm self-employed, live well below my means and have a nice retirement portfolio. I'm looking for a Wife. A concept that seems to be constantly conflated with a "wedding" for the single 30-somethings. And I agree too that part of establishing Wife material is to understand how and why they are single at 35. I've got zero interest in being a "settle-down" guy. Good or bad, that is my underlying assumption if you are in that 35 y/o range. Help me unwind that view and all is good. I'm shocked at how few women can even imagine that this male perspective exists, let alone are actively engaging in defusing it - that is, if they can.

      There is a BIG difference between changing your focus to men like me because the club rats or exotic/exciting/extroverted big fellas have stopped chasing you versus a concerted effort to align your strategy/behavior with your words and your goals of becoming a Wife and mother. That is a notion that tends to fall through the cracks a bit in all the advice floating about. We all have to own up to the truth at some point, the results of our actions, decisions. If I even get a whiff of the fresh paint applied to a boozy/promiscuous/flaky/irresponsible/novelty-seeking past, I'm gone. I've had to do it a handful of times, it sucks, but I've just worked too hard and sacrificed too much over the years to take that kind of risk.

      Yet women I meet too often launch into proving their worth by unknowingly waving all of the red-flags. The message here needs to get out to these women. I'm NOT impressed by your world travel, your MA in communication, your "bad luck" with exes, your "sexual liberation/empowerment". Just meet me half-way with some kind of future-orientation, self-respect, moral compass, empathy/understanding of the male position, and alignment of words and actions. I prefer women closer to my age, but I am having an increasingly difficult time holding onto that view.

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    2. I totally agree with you regarding "I'm NOT impressed by your world travel." I am amazed at how important traveling is to white collar women in our age range. Whenever a woman starts going on about traveling, I automatically assume that she is self-centered, as most of the women I meet who travel a lot really do seem to be very in to themselves. Perhaps women are impressed by people who travel a lot, but I am not. I am looking to marry a woman who will be good to me and would be a good mother and I am always on the lookout for selfish tendencies.

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    3. I think traveling is cool, and I am not really attracted to men who are so angry and critical that even a woman bringing up such a neutral topic such as "travel" will be enough to set them off and for them to label her as "selfish". Even if you are not impressed by a woman's travel, are you really going to hold it against her? that that is what she might be trying to do? Impress you. It sounds to me like there might be some resentment on your parts that YOU didn't spend more time traveling, having fun, dancing with exotic people etc. and now you are just bitter. There is more to life than working up the latter in corporate America. By the way, when you travel you can learn about other ways of seeing the world through the eyes of different cultures and people. Travel is a way to open your mind and your heart to humanity. Maybe you should go to McDonald's or walmart to find your future wives.

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    4. I think anon 1:20 probably meant that he was not impressed by women who brag about her world travel and etc. Don't we all know someone like that? I love taking road trips and have driven all over northern California in the past three years. Last winter I dated a guy who dissed the national parks because he had visited ancient ruins all around the world. Apparently that didn't work out. I thought he was a pompous ass, he probably thought I was too "peasant". By the way, I am white collar during the week, but I love to get my shoes and car dirty on weekends.

      I think our hobbies will not keep us from being good wives and mothers. I would like to find a mate who is equally interested in exploring the outdoors, but I certainly understand that some men prefer couch-based activities.

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    5. @Vivian
      Your comments are off the mark entirely and tow the "angry-bitter-resentful-insecure" feminist meme quite well. "...spend more time traveling, having fun, dancing with exotic people etc...There is more to life than working up the latter in corporate America." There is also more to life than spending your 20's spreading for exotic men, pursuing self-indulgence with impunity, and indulging in hedonistic dream-chasing all while rationalizing it as some kind of cultural education and valuable "life experience".

      Honey is correct. The point is not about travel, it is about how too many women don't understand what is actually attractive to a man - in fact, as far as to say in certain contexts things like travel and seeking fun and exoticism are precisely the things that often indicate a lack of restraint, future-orientation, fiscal responsibilities, priorities, and delaying gratification for greater goals/rewards in the future. Qualities that indicate strength of character, which is important in a wife and mother. If you must brag, I'd rather hear about how you worked at Walmart over xmas break to save up for your first car as opposed to most tales, which are so often about a freshly minted REI backpack, daddy's credit card, and/or some eat-pray-love crisis that was more important than a 401k - I know, so totally boring! right?

      Women have the option to live the life you suggest in their 20's with vastly fewer risks in terms of status and future provisioning abilities. Men work, build, and provide. Any deviation from those things is weighed heavily. Focusing on those things in our youth is how we get the power, status, and character that you find attractive, particularly when marriage (suddenly) becomes a priority (at 30+) and all us boring corporate drones that used to be invisible are now sexy, but oh so hard to get to commit. LOL.

      I am well-traveled, including stints living and schooling abroad but I can assure you if I spent my 20's "dancing with exotic people" and "having fun" every time I felt the urge or at the cost of advancing my skill-set, career, and value in both economic and holistic ways I would not be the kind of provider that 90% of 35 y/o well-traveled or "worldly" or "experienced" women are looking to land as a husband.

      And your last sentence sums up your (typical) elitist, entitled attitude that turns men like me off in an instant. FTR, my mom worked at McDonalds off and on while raising four kids to help my father earn enough to send me to Boy Scout camp, among other things, where I first learned to sail. When I took my GF sailing from St. Lucia to the Grenadines, I told her that story over a rum cocktail while sharing a hammock. Needless to say, she never bragged about her travel or other first-world entitlement BS.

      Climbing the corporate "latter" is never as important, though so easy to bash, when you are not the one expected to do any of the climbing. My corporate ladder climbing was how I ultimately built my own business(es). A lot of my 20's sucked but I knew that I wanted to be a husband and a father and when my dad went to heaven I had to support my mom too so being a provider and a caregiver means sacrificing and investing in an unknown future; I was working for the family that I did not yet have. Its called being a man, something that women like you are incapable of comprehending. I don't know why I even try sometimes...

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    6. To the last poster, I am a woman in her 20s working the so-called educational ladder. I have missed the exotic travel and everything else that Vivian describes. I see how the two can be a little resentful of one another. I will be first to admit that I resent that I am not able to be the adventurous type. I have met people my age, both men and woman, who have stories full of events as I recount the next thing I must accomplish. More so, the constant need to achieve has put a hamper on my opportunity to meet men and stress makes you bitter at times.

      Even in my periodic resent of what fun my 20s can be, I remember that I chose this path. I think that it is the difference of whether you live in the present or for the future. Selection of either path builds your character. So, I guess I would have to marry someone of similar mentality.

      What I meant to say is that men aren't the only ones with this mindset. There are women who also spend their 20s building a future. Maybe you should seek out one of these women? On a side note, I would prefer if men were able to build their personal and professional lives at the same time. Maybe it is naive, but I envisioned getting married before I hit 30 to someone that isn't retiring from his career, rather building it with me. I noticed a lot of men think they have to pull the horse and carriage by themselves. What's wrong with joint effort?

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    7. It's funny you talk about travel snobs. I don't meet many but I know the type. It's the sort who collect experiences not for their own sake, but for bragging rights. I watched The Apprentice USA last night and most of the contestants were vapid, delusional and narcissistic. Is this what you mean?

      I love to travel and flights to the Continent are cheap. I don't see why liking travel could be perceived as a negative. I have traveled all over Europe. I have my head screwed on and I'm not someone who eschews a responsible life.

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    8. Anon 1:41 and Lucy

      I had no intention of going down a "travel" rabbit hole. Its not about what is "good" or "bad". It is about what attributes men actually place value on in a mate. There is a persistent and powerful message (lie) that has ben propagated for a long time that what men want/value in a woman is the same as what women want/value in men. That is just not true. Yes there is a lot of overlap and everyone varies a little, but as a whole, things that come off as competitive, aggressive, confrontational, or otherwise masculine, are not going to be as well received as (far too many) women think. Bragging about travel (or sexcapades) and professional accomplishments is different than an interest in international travel and a passion for what you do with your time. The point is that many women present themselves in ways that they actually want the man to present; they are barking up the wrong tree.

      There is nothing wrong with building education and careers, just be aware that those accomplishments are not going to carry the same weight as they do for men - and certainly not if presented in a way that undermines other feminine qualities (bragging, ball-busting, aggression). Its not about fairness or equality, but about the reality of attraction. Do it because you love it, it is your passion, etc. but don't expect it to carry the day in the eyes of most men. E.g. Anon, there is nothing wrong with your path, but if you want a husband, be aware of how much time/energy/focus your career/education-building might be taking away from your (assumed) long-term goal of marriage and kids. And understand that climbing most ladders is not going to be viewed as positively/attractively in a man's eyes as you might value his ladder climbing. The 20's should also be about finding that man - making yourself available (and more attractive) to those men of similar mindset. Don't wait until x-y-z then flip the switch. Too many women think they have more time than they really do. Do the math, work backward from your ideal marrying/childbearing age - and if kids are a goal, look into the fertility data, that might move the goal line a bit too.

      " I noticed a lot of men think they have to pull the horse and carriage by themselves."
      Exactly. Because (a) demonstrating this willingness and capacity makes us MORE attractive to you and (b) we don't have an opt-out of that role. Sure we can partner up and form a joint effort, but it would be unwise to bank on attracting a partner with the view that we are looking for someone to share the "burden". Women may be willing to do so, but advertising as such - let alone altering course or intensity indicating as much would be demonstrating lower value to a woman. Its attraction suicide. The joint effort comes AFTER we attract you, court you, and are then mutually invested enough to marry. This doesn't even get into all of the disincentives for men to marry. We pull the cart regardless of whether or not we find-attract-marry you, so that mindset is fairly prudent. And the reality is, in our economic era there will have to be a lot more dual cart-pulling, particularly if one or both people don't shed (evolve beyond) the yoke of consumerism and leveraged lifestyles.

      I desire a partner for the journey; I'm not looking to fully bake the cake myself then invite you over for a slice. But I've met far too many otherwise lovely ladies who are so misinformed (or self-absorbed) that they assume the female and male experience in terms of options, expectations, and attraction are about sameness, equality. Some eventually "get it", but they tend to be over 35 and, well, let the men hear tell you what those women are now up against... ps - kill your TV, go for a run.

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    9. Ps-
      As to the bitter, resentful man. This is the party line conclusion to pretty much anything that has to do with the male perspective that might run counter to the the feminized entitlement culture. Oh he must be: bitter-angry-resentful-insecure. Yep, some certainly are, but it is quite telling of the cultural perspective that women are rarely asking *Why?*

      The pesky *why?* that doesn't seem to matter until it results in fewer men willing to enter into marriage (or even any committed relationship for that matter) at which point it conveniently becomes: "why aren't men 'manning-up'?" See a pattern here? If our true desires, what we actually find attractive in a woman are painted over and/or demonized, the system itself is being sabotaged.

      Its not just about men getting what they want and vice versa; it is about the truth, about how we are complimentary not equal-at-all-cost, how we should be mutually benefiting from our differences, not becoming entrenched in false ideology. There is a "culture" that is working tirelessly to marginalize, devalue, and obfuscate those truths, like the things us men desire and value, among other things, that is resulting in a highly adversarial environment in which men and women are too often locked in a wicked dance of cake-eating and self-indulgence.

      The "successful" men and women, the ones who actually date and then marry happily, are quietly agreeing to ignore and rise above those false messages to acknowledge and embrace those different attractions, values, and needs. But far too many others are taking (or have taken) the 'Sex and the City' script and then scream about injustice and male failings when Mr. Big fails to show up at the alter on time - or at all. Stand in the truth or continue to cast men into the bitter-resentful encampment. Your choice ladies.

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    10. Vivian, I personally have met women who don't simply bring up the topic of traveling. Instead, traveling seems to be one of the most critical things in their lives and the won't stop talking about it. Someone like that (man or woman) is definitely self-centered and I don't know too many men who find that attractive in a woman.

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  5. So I know you've already covered "Women in their 20s," but most of your advice for 20-somethings seems geared toward those who have already graduated college and who now live and work in cities. Do you have any advice for game for college-aged girls? Does it meaningfully differ from your other advice for 20-somethings? I've tried, for example, dating older men, but there isn't much selection since I live in a predominantly college town where there is no real professional/urban life outside of the college campus. It's not as though I, for example, go to college in Chicago or Los Angeles where there are plenty of older, professional men available to date.

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    1. College bridges the gap between your teens and 20s. You should transition between those sets of rules during that time.

      The only advice I would give college girls is that just because "college" is "supposed" to be a time when you have sex, lose your virginity, etc. doesn't mean it is a good idea. STDs, emotional heartache and reputations follow closely behind drunken decisions to spread your legs.

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  6. This female-game blog written by a man is waaaay better than any written by a woman that i've seen.

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  7. Don't avoid men over 40 though. They will see you as a hot young babe! Also, men peak in attractiveness around 40. Maybe not physically, but in the ways that women care about. I would also not categorically avoid divorced men, although I would proceed with both eyes fully open.

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  8. question..

    How do you know if a man is ready to marry without asking him?

    We've only been on two dates so I don't want to seem crazy, but I'm just starting to "filter" for men that are ready for marriage. I don't really have the dating experience of a 30 yr old so I am not always sure if I'm filtering well enough.

    He is 31 and some of his friends are married or engaged. His brother is also married and from what I know his parents have a great marriage. Still together.
    I thought these were good signs, he might want to marry soon right?

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    1. You ask him. Not on day one of the relationship, but opportunities to talk about these things come up naturally. If you start to discuss a wedding or engagement of a friend or relative, for example, you ask him what he thinks about how long a couple should be engaged for before getting married. Or talk about children: there are plenty of ways to bring up the topic of how many kids he wants. You don't need to ask him outright if he is ready to marry; you can gauge it from how much thought he's given your other questions. If you still can't tell, ask him directly.

      If you are dating a guy who thinks it is ridiculous to talk to his girlfriend about his expectations or wants regarding marriage, then he isn't going to be ready anytime soon and you can take that as a warning in and of itself that you should start looking elsewhere.

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  9. One point you might've added is to think of the man that you want. Think of what he does and then find a way to be wherever that is.

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  10. The divorced man might need you to pay for child support for his other kids. How many other kids does he have? Is he going to be able to love his other kids and the kids he has with you equally? Can he even have more kids?

    Don't let the divorced man (or any many) waste your time dragging things out. I agree with Andrew on this one. Be very leery of divorced men. Your family will be his second family and you deserve to be the first and only family a man has.

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    1. Well the general rule would be to avoid assholes in general. If he's being a dick, drop him, regardless of whether he has children or not.
      Having children will always be a disadvantage. Every woman wants a man who's having his first and last child with her. The point is if you've reached the age of 35 and find yourself single, you simply don't have the same options. A 50 year old successful and confident man with children might very well be a great option over a 35 year old who just wants to fuck you or a 40 year old who's never going to commit. You may hold out for that one 39 year old who's never been married and will settle for a 30-something over a 20-something, but don't hold your breath.
      I think blogs like these should base themselves on realism rather than some vauge utopia if they actually want to do women a favour. A man who's never been married is always preferable over a man who's divorced, but take a hard and real look at where you stand.

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    2. 50 year old having kids? Who wants a dad that is 70 when you are in college?

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    3. Who doesn't want a dad who can afford to have a baby when he was 50?

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    4. who cares what the kid wants

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  11. Thank you for finally publishing this post. I realize I may be on the far end of the spectrum, but the reality for me is that I look younger than girls who are 8 years younger than me. I am very attractive. If I'm getting carded and people are telling me they thought I was 18 years old, I am not delusional about the state of my looks. I do realize I am the exception. Most girls my age are starting to lose their looks, but I am not. In fact looking young has been really bad for me because it has given me the perception of more biological time than is the truth. This is probably one of the reasons why I am still single right now, and the fact that men are constantly chasing me because they are probably after sex, and having to filter properly. Also men who are 34-39 are not the ideal age. I would say 30-35 is more appropriately the ideal age for men. Men who are much younger than me hit on me thinking I am much younger than them. The only issue I feel is that because I am attractive I am constantly pursued by men who may just want sex. And that I have baggage from choosing bad partners so it's harder for me to be open at this point in my life. But I am that girl that men, including celebrities and rich men pursue. I never wanted to date someone that was very rich though because yes, I don't want to give up my career aspirations. The other thing is now that I'm 30 I'm more of a hermit. All things considered, I appreciate many points of this blog, but I think that not all women in their thirties are out of their peak. For me that simply is not the reality. If it were, I would agree with this but it's simply not my experience. Yes for most women in their thirties, but I think different people will fall along the spectrum differently.

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    1. I get where you are coming from with your looks. Who wants to be a trophy? Women are people and want to be loved, not sexed. Rock on.

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    2. Thank you Anon 6:32 :)

      Also I would like to add that because I am a pragmatic person, I have become increasingly aware and mindful of my biological circumstances. This is the quality in me that has been steadfast in taking care of my looks beyond the norm since a young age. So being mindful of this state at 30 is better than at 34, or something. Either way, I find it demeaning to say blanketed statements diminishing the attractiveness of a woman simply because of her biological age, as if this is the case for all women. If you met me in real life, you would never guess that I was 30. Not in a million years.

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    3. I look young for my age (I am late twenties) and still get confused for a teen BUT some men do have a weird thing about age and I guess for a man who wants many children it is relevant even if the lady is a major hottie after 30. You can look amazing etc. etc. and to some extent the outer appearance is an indicator of fertility but I don't know..I would not expect a family orientated guy to be as into the idea of settling down with me in five years time as he would now.

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    4. Yes, you are right...to be honest, I don't go around telling every man I meet my age. They just assume that I'm way younger than I am, pretty much a decade, and this is not an exaggeration. The problem is, if they did know my real age, it would probably be off-putting to a good extent. But this is where I can filter out the men who are looking for something serious, and guys who just want to waste my time. When they find out that I'm 30, they will probably not pursue further if they are not completely serious about me, and actually ready for marriage, and kids pretty soon. That's fine. Guys that want the luxury of time to explore whether I'm right for them for years will probably venture elsewhere, and that is fine for me, too. Although, to be honest, I have met men who don't care and will want to waste my time anyway, and this is where I still have to filter appropriately. But I still think there is a difference between being a woman at 30, and being a woman at 35, although I still know very beautiful women at 35 who are doing fine.

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    5. Hey Anonymous hot 30 year-old. Hot women have a lot of power so you may want to use that to your advantage and approach men, either online or in real life, especially through friend circles. You don't even need to ask out, just talk to guys. Most guys are thinking that they shouldn't approach women because she'll bitch out at him or think he's a stalker so use your experience to discern who might be some good guys and just have a conversation with them. If you like what you hear from them then drop some hints like you love to do x, y or z and I bet some of them will take the bait and ask you out.

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    6. I am just wondering how DO you get men to approach you if the kinds of men you want to date do not approach you? Since my long term relationship ended I have been almost consistently propositioned by cocky player kinds who are not ready to settle down or who think they do for a few weeks..then decide that they don't. I have learned to recognize and filter out these kinds now and have turned down advances from very attractive men that I know are trouble. I am still in my late twenties but I know that I want to settle down and marry..it just seems the marrying kinds do not come anywhere near me. A guy I know told me that it is because nice guys might be too intimidated to approach when really I would love to interact with these kinds of men especially before I turn 30.

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    7. Annie,

      You can't force men to approach you; you have to attract them. Some men won't approach even when you are as attractive as you can be. It is an intimidating thing to do, and not all men have the balls. I would recommend a two-pronged approach: (a) do what you can to improve your physical attractiveness. This will encourage more men to approach you. Then (b), work on expanding your social circle, where meetings with men will be facilitated.

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    8. Annie. In one word: approach.

      In two words: show interest.

      In three words: ask him out.

      I think it's a total myth that a guy will be repulsed if a girl he finds attractive does any of the three above. Yeah, once you've gotten the ball rolling then he should make more of the effort to pursue but in today's culture where women regularly call guys creeps and stalkers and pervs and delight in blowing out guys who approach them, you can understand why some guys are a bit hesitant to approach.

      I would be happy if a woman I found attractive approached me for a conversation and assuming there was some mutual spark I would be more than thrilled if she suggested getting together. I, of course, actually do ask women out but I wouldn't be put off if a woman approached me and give signs she was interested or outright asked me out.

      Even if a woman approached me that I wasn't interested in I wouldn't act like a dick. And if she asked me out and I wasn't interested I would politely decline.

      Women have made it tougher for men to approach with their collectively too entitled and stuck-up attitudes (not all women are like that) and so that's why you tend to get more of the cocky players as the only ones approaching because the good guys have been partially taught to not bother women or make them feel uncomfortable. So, you women have to make it easier for men to approach and show more interest yourselves and even ask guys out.

      Of course, don't ask out a guy that's out of your league--if you're a 6, don't expect to ask out an 8 and have him be excited--and then say, "See, it doesn't work!!!" Get real about how attractive you are (looks, personality, life) and then find a guy that is roughly in line with that. Too many women have an overrated view of their attractiveness because they do get a lot of the players dipping down in attractiveness for casual sex and think that's the level of guy they could get for a bf.

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  12. Andrew-Thanks for posting this. I have some questions about a comment you made in point 3, titled "Recognize your disadvantage."

    You commented, "Men are going to be more attracted initially to younger and hotter girls, and you will get less attention because of it for better or worse, this is the way it is."

    You also commented, "You can tell yourself repeatedly that you look "young for your age, you can pretend that celebrities A and B disprove the rule, or you can just adamantly refuse to believe it."

    However, on Jan 16, 2013, in your Some Older women are Smart post, you explained how at one point dating a woman 2 years older than yourself was not so much an issue for you (even though you have expressed strong preference for dating younger women) because she looked 25. You said, "I am not dating her anymore. She also looked like a 25 year old, which made me less concerned about her age. I did, however, get the impression that she didn't respect me because I was younger. She essentially told me this at one point. THIS, more than the fact that she was older, was a big problem."

    My point in bringing this up is not to be a smart ass, but rather to better understand where you stand on the topic of women who look younger than their age.

    In your Some Older Women are Smart post, you said you were "less concerned" about the older woman's age you were dating because she "looked like a 25 year old," but in your Female Game for Women in their 30s post, you commented to 30 plus women that;

    "You can tell yourself repeatedly that you look young for your age." This statement seemed to imply that you think that a 30 plus woman who looks younger than her age is irrelevant, and doesn't have much bearing on her success in dating and finding a husband. And yet, even you broke your own rule at one point to date an older woman because she looked younger than her age. So I'm just a bit confused. Do you feel that a woman who looks younger than her age has an advantage and that more men will be attracted and willing to date her? Even men like yourself who say they prefer younger women? Or are her youthful looks irrelevant and does it really all just come down to her chronological age?

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    1. Just wanted to clarify that when I made the comment, "This statement seemed to imply that you think that a 30 plus woman who looks younger than her age is irrelevant, and doesn't have much bearing on her success in dating and finding a husband," I wasn't trying to ask you if you thought a 30 plus woman is irrelevant, I was just asking if a 30 plus woman who appears younger than her actual age is relevant to her having an advantage in dating and getting married. I'm sure you knew what I meant, but just thought I'd mention it for clarity's sake.

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    2. Thanks for your question. I can see where the confusion comes from, but it is easily explained.

      Regarding the fact that I went out with an older girl: the "rule" is a rule for women to maintain for their own well-being, not a rule that men need to worry about. If a man deems an older woman hot enough and enjoys her company, then he risks nothing by trying to date her - except perhaps that she might not want a younger boyfriend (which is unattractive to some women). But he doesn't need to worry about getting banged and dumped after laying down emotional ties. The fact that I wanted to give it a shot with an older women does not disprove the rule in any way. The fact that I ultimately decided it wouldn't work out DOES support the rule. So the fact that I went on a handful of dates with an older girl shouldn't raise an eyebrow.

      The comment "You can tell yourself repeatedly that you look young for your age" is aimed at women who do NOT look young for their age, but try to convince themselves that they do. Women that DO look young for their age DO have a better chance with younger men.

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  13. A youthful look is definitely an advantage, but it doesn't make an older woman a better candidate if the man is interested in having kids.

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  14. One other thing which does not appear in this post, but which has been mentioned in previous posts by Andrew, is that a woman in her 30s should be ruthlessly honest in her appraisal of her own SMV/MMV. Most women in their 30s, no matter how attractive, smart and awesome they are, can't expect to attract, to the same extent, those men they could attract easily in their 20s. I know quite a few women (many of them my friends), attractive, smart, successful, wonderful, wonderful women who got married in their mid 30s to financially stable, responsible, mature men. The only thing about these men is that their looks are nothing to write home about - average to below average, their only saving grace being their sense of hygiene and grooming skills. The very men whom my friends would have rejected straight out in their 20s, due to their lack of looks, physique and general hotness. My friends were realistic in their expectations and decided that was the best they could attract. Those who didn't want to compromise are still single and little chance now of starting a family of their own.

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    1. I intended that this would be implied in the point "Recognize your disadvantage" (i.e. in attractiveness) but you are right that it is important.

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  15. While I read your blog often (like daily, and kudos because the male perspective is so helpful and coughI'm 34cough), I couldn't help last night but to think... I wonder how much HIS perspective will change once HE is in his thirties. Just a thought... because sensitivity about age and the work it would take to keep up in the looks dept never ever in the history of ever-ever crossed my mind before I crossed 30's finish line. (Actually 32. Ignorance was bliss until I was 32.)

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    1. I understand your concern, but I think that sensitivity to the issue in this case would merely obscure the truth. I can promise you that no man selecting from a crowd of women thinks "well, the girl in her 30s over there isn't quite as attractive as the one in her late 20s over there; but I know it is tough for the one in her 30s to keep up her appearance, so I am going to ignore the hotter one and go for her instead." It just doesn't work that way.

      All I am telling you is what you should do in light of how men choose women. If it happens to be difficult - c'est la vie...

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  16. I'm reading a lot about this in the comments, about how men in their 30's are going to go for 20-somethings if they want kids and this just makes me laugh.

    Most 20-somethings are not going to go for a 30-something man if they are looking for marriage and kids. They will use the 30-something man for sex and his wallet, but if she wants to get married and is good looking (and she will be if 30-somethings are after her) she has plenty of options in the 20-something range to marry.

    Just as Andrew said he never picked the older woman because he didn't want to look back 20 years in the future at younger women and think he could have had that, women don't want to either. Or, be bound to a guy she has to take care of when she is still in her prime.

    If a man is in his thirties and wants marriage/kids, just like the 30-something woman, he did something wrong. But, that isn't what this blog is about so I will leave it at that. Rather, I think 30-something women who are reading this and think "I'm SOL" can take a little bit of confront that the reports of all the options men in their 30's have with younger women are greatly exaggeration.

    If nothing else, think back to your 20's and with your friends. How many were willing to date a man 7, 10 years her senior for any reason other than a sugar daddy?

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    1. J and Anonymous 8:15 AM
      Yes you’re right – it’s all relative. The most beautiful women and the most successful men – of any age – can do whatever they want. Everyone else has to compromise. Successful men in their 30’s CAN pick women in their 20’s. Hot women in their 20’s can choose their peers if they want. The point is once women hit their 30’s the best of their peers are probably out of her range so they have to compromise and choose older / less attractive etc.

      I’m 29 so I meet women from 18 to 36 who are interested. My preferred age is about 6 years younger so I would consider older than that relative to how much hotter she is. The oldest I would consider would be about 26 or 27.

      But as you say many younger women ignore me as too old as well – the market will dictate what you can get.


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    2. "The point is once women hit their 30’s the best of their peers are probably out of her range so they have to compromise and choose older / less attractive etc."

      Ah, but that is man thinking. To a man, looks are the end all be all. Having to "settle" for a woman who isn't hot is a fate worse than death. Heh, funny, my ex told me, "You are perfect for me in every way but one: your body." So he chose, as so many do, to forgo love, kindness, and a perfect match for him in every way in favor of trying to find someone with a better body.

      But, back to the point, if I could find a guy who had most of the things I'm looking for in a life partner at 30, I wouldn't care if he looked like Quasi Moto or if he was a little older (provided he was in good health - which most Americans are not). No, in fact, as a lady looking for a husband and love in her 30's my problem isn't finding an attractive, age appropriate man to date (even though I am not that attractive myself). There are plenty of hotties coming my way - it is finding a man who has what I really desire that is the problem.

      Healthy, educated, has a job (dependable), kind, has similar values, doesn't have drama in the form of an ex-wife and/or kids, mature, and someone who, simply put, I think would make a good father and husband.

      Maybe it is just me, but I feel like so many men, 35 to 45, have had the best part of them used by another woman already, who chewed them up and then spit them out, and the remainder is all that is left for me. No, sorry, if can't offer me your best, I'll pass.

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    3. I am not sure how to take that quasi-compliment/complaint that your ex gave. If directed at me, I would think it means he is not attracted to me physically, and the rest of my "being perfect and whatnot" was just thrown in there to soften the blow. This is consistent with what Andrew has been pointing out on this blog, that physical attraction plays an important role in men's selection of mates. If you have plenty of hotties coming your way, then you are attractive, though not your ex' cup of tea obviously.

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    4. J, when you say good looking women in their twenties have lots of options of guys their age to marry you're right. But only a minority of women in their 20's are good looking (most, by definition are within a standard deviation of average) so you're arguing your point by only using the good looking portion of the population.

      So, yeah, some men overestimate how young they can go but it's not unrealistic for a guy in his mid 30's to get a woman in her late 20's. Or a 40 y/o guy to get an early 30's woman. Now, if the 40 y/o wants an attractive 25 y/o then he better have some good game or looks or success, etc.

      Anyway, once people are adults, they can make up their own minds and go for whom they like and see if they can attract that person. If not, then they have to re-evaluate.

      As long as people are adults then there is no such thing as age-appropriate. That comes off sounding like older women trying to shame younger women away from older men ("they're creepy") and older men away from younger women so that the older women can have the guys their age more for themselves. And, you know what? It's worked to some degree.

      But women only shoot themselves in the foot if they won't consider a guy who's 5 years older if she's in her early 20's or 10 years older if she's in her late 20's or 10-15 years older if she's in her mid 30's.

      Stats show that once a woman hits 30 and unmarried that her odds of marrying in the next 5 years are quite low. Women who really want to get married should do so in their 20's and if you hit your 30's unmarried then you really need to follow the great advice in this post. And just so you don't think there is no hope, my cousin got married when she was 39 and has a kid now--but she is more of the outlier, not the norm.

      See this post for the stats on % of never-married women by age range. You can see what percent got married by looking five years further along and shifting up in age bracked by 5 years:

      http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/11/24/more-grim-news-for-carousellers-hoping-to-jump-at-the-last-minute/

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    5. The first interesting thing that jumps out in the post I just linked to above is that the % of never-married white females started to rapidly rise in 2007 for the 25-29 and 30-34 y/o cohorts.

      Also, look at how in 2007, that 18.5% of 30-34 y/o white women had never married and by 2012, that same group had moved into the 35-39 y/o category and that number only dropped to 15.4%. So, basically, 16.8% (3.1%/18.5%) of the 30-34 y/o cohort married in the next five years. That's 1 in 6.

      The numbers of 35-39 y/o women getting married are worse. The change from 11.4% of 35-39 y/o's never married in 2007 to 11.3% in 2012 means about 1% chance (0.1%/11.4%).

      However, that might have been an outlier year so let's average 2005-2007 35-39 y/o white women and compare with the average of 2010-2012. We get [(11.7 + 13 + 11.4) - (9.8 + 10.6 +11.3)] / [11.7 + 13 + 11.4] = 12.2%.

      So, that means that 12.2% of the never married 35-39 y/o never-married white females from 2005-07 got married within the next 5 years.

      These numbers are taken from the U.S. census.

      Bottom line for women that DO want to marry and have kids:

      -start looking now

      -women in their 20's shouldn't think that it will be easy to find someone when they are in their 30's

      -women in their 30's or older should follow the excellent advice in this post and be less picky and up their attractiveness as much as possible and go where the marriage-oriented guys are and avoid players that want to waste time fooling around

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    6. J, I have to disagree with your final comment...I'm in my early twenties (22) and would only date a guy 5+ years older, as would most of my friends. Guys my age just want to have fun (and fair enough, to be honest), but for a girl casual relationships generally end badly. Also, it incredibly sexy when a guy has his act together - flat, job, good network of friends which a lot of guys in their early 20 haven't gotten around to yet.

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    7. Interesting. So you're actually looking to date guys that are 27 or older because you see them as more interested in and capable of a serious relationship.

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    8. Definitely - I would think it more strange were a guy my age to want to get settled down so young. I also like the idea of an older guy having dated a wider variety of women and so the chances of him knowing what's important to him in a relationship are higher.

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    9. I am 22 and since taking the red pill I have stopped dating men under 30. It's been working out incredibly! I suggest that girls reading this blog in their 20s do the same. Most of these guys esp. 32+ are very happy to have a hot 20 yr old and they are also really happy that I am not like other 20 yr olds and value commitment.

      I've already had to turn down a few great guys. They weren't right for me. No, I am not using them for money, I offer to pay all of the times we go out and eventually insist on paying on the 3rd date. That's how you let them know you aren't a gold digger.

      Sorry to say this, but you might find it helpful.... many of these guys were dating women their own age, but were very interested in me and I know they would blow the other girls off to see me (I've had a few admit to it)

      I remember one telling me that he was not interested in women his age (30) another told me that 30 yr old women "know how to have fun" (he meant were easier to sleep with) but, again, while we were dating he blew girls off to see me. Any 20 yr olds who won't consider older men should try it out.

      I don't consider men 20-29 because I know his SMV/MMV will continue to rise while mine drops. I don't want to date a hottie while I look gross and wrinkled.

      Everyone should check out Rollo's graph,

      http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/06/04/final-exam-navigating-the-smp/

      as you can see women peak at 23 and men peak much later. Makes perfect sense to date older men.

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    10. I'm just curious. Amongst your female friends, what is the upper age range they would consider? At what age does a man showing interest start to make you feel uncomfortable? I can understand that a 22 y/o would think a 35 or 40 y/o is too old (though if she likes him and he treats her well then more power to her) but I think there is a lot of shaming towards men to focus on women their own age, probably to gin up men to marry the older women.

      FWIW, when I look on okcupid at the age range that women put, typically 22 y/o's put about 22-27 for the men they want. 25 y/o's are about 25-32 and 30 y/o's are about 29-38. These are just rough numbers. You also get a few in their 30's that put an age range of younger then themselves but they tend to not be looking for long-term or marriage as much.

      Another interesting point is that about 60% of recent college graduates are women and so there won't be enough college-graduate men to marry them all. I'm not saying that they need to be a lot of women kind of think that if they have a degree so should their husband.

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    11. I think it depends what you have to offer physically, socially, and professionally. As a women that is 25 and attended graduate school, I didn't feel like I wanted to 'date for marriage' until I get to a point in my career that I am happy with. So prior to now, I would get advances from 27-35 year old men that were ready to marry someone like me. Instead, I would only consider guys my age or 1-2 yrs older.

      The older men, stable in their careers, would pressure me to drop everything and get married. They wanted to take care of me, but I was raised to build myself first.

      Now that I am 25, I find that I am finally ready to date 'for marriage'. I have built a career for myself and am more attractive than most girls in my field. I am not interested in a sugar daddy. I am also not interested in dating someone that views me as a child or arm candy. My age range for eligible men is 25-30...maybe 31/32, but I highly doubt it. I also look young for my age because of my features. I get approached by men 19-34...I look about 21 w/o make up, 23 with.

      Take it as you will. I have young friends looking to marry straight out of college in the 27+ range. Not to be harsh, but these are girls that graduated with majors that do not provide jobs or barely make ends meet. They are looking for 27+ men with $$$. They get to be taken care of because the men that they graduate with, similar ambitions, are jobless and broke. I heard this being said: 'Swag is fun, but it doesn't pay the bills'. Mothers of these girls telling them to hold onto these men for dear life.

      Just some input. Notice the comment above from the 22 yr old...GOOD JOB. It is a business arrangement, you get the young girl and I get the stability of money. And I thought it was for LOVE or marriage?

      Delete
    12. Anon @ feb 18, 3:34 P.M.

      I agree with your comment to the 22 yr old young woman which was;

      "Just some input. Notice the comment above from the 22 yr old...GOOD JOB. It is a business arrangement, you get the young girl and I get the stability of money. And I thought it was for LOVE or marriage?"

      Seriously, does this young woman not realize that she too will be 30 one day and perhaps subject to the same demeaning comments that her 30 something gentleman friends are dishing out to their female peers? She seems pleased that these older men see her as some "hot 20 year old" and while I don't think that it's entirely negative for an older man to be happy about dating a younger, hot woman, her emphasis on being with an older man and not wanting to "date a hottie (in the 20-29 range) while I look gross and wrinkled,' just seems a bit vain. And if her looks and youth are the main attraction points to the older men she dates, then who's to say their attraction for her will not wane or that she will not "be blown off" and disposed of when she hits 30 (just like the women she and 30 something men smugly speak of) and replaced for a younger, hotter 20 something?

      Delete
    13. "The point is once women hit their 30’s the best of their peers are probably out of her range so they have to compromise and choose older / less attractive etc."

      So lets say there are 100 women in their 20's and 100 men in their 20's. By the time the men and women are 30, only 50 women have been married. Who married the other 50 men? Don't say younger women, because the cycle would continue forever as the younger women are marrying the 100 available men in their group.

      Delete
    14. Because the 32 y/o who marries her will be 40 by the time she's 30 and 30 y/o women are still quite attractive (assuming they haven't gotten fat) and more attractive than the same-age-as-him, now-40 y/o woman the man could have married. Plus, his looks will have started to fade too so he won't find it so easy to get someone hotter.

      And, finally, you both forget that a 22 y/o woman and a 32 y/o man could fall in love and it's not necessarily about money. She said she even pays for the 3rd date and implied she isn't a gold digger.

      Anyway, if she's happy with these men and they treat her well and not just as a sex toy then what's wrong with her dating them with the intent of finding a bf or husband?

      I'm not saying 22 y/o women should only date 30+ y/o men or even at all. But if those men are bringing what she wants and vice versa then they can fall in love and be happy.

      Delete
    15. Anonymous @February 18, 2013 at 3:14 PM

      In response to your comment,
      "Definitely - I would think it more strange were a guy my age to want to get settled down so young. I also like the idea of an older guy having dated a wider variety of women and so the chances of him knowing what's important to him in a relationship are higher. "

      I think the opposite is more true. If a guy your age is wanting to settle down, he should be seen as someone who is mature for his age and who has his priorities together. I mean, so many young women complain about men in their early 20's as being immature and wanting to sleep around, but if a guy that young is genuinely ready and willing to commit to one woman for the rest of his life, then he's a rare gem indeed and should be commended and respected for it. Plus, if he's that mature at such a young age, just imagine how exceptional he'll be when he's even older and has more experience in life. When he's in his late 20's/early 30s, he'll most likely be way ahead of the other men his age who took forever to grow up.

      Delete
    16. I agree that the young male looking for commitment should be given a chance, assuming he has his act together and all that.

      Delete
    17. I find an issue in someone that explicitly mentions paying for the 3rd date to 'not look like a gold digger'. Why would that thought even cross your mind, if you weren't one? I expect men to pay for my dates until we are in a relationship, and I do not search for men with $$$ jobs to support me. I support myself.

      Also, I would not be so harsh to stereotype a 22 year old dating a 30 year old from the get-go if I saw a reason for this. When one states that at 22 they specifically date 27+ only for job stability, no exceptions, this would make me a bit suspicious as a man. And knowing that men die earlier than woman, give me a reason beyond the $$$ that you would choose a man at least 5-10 years your senior.

      If she had said it is because men her age are immature, I would have thought differently about the situation. Given her reasoning, it makes me a little uncomfortable. And older men dating young women like this realize it. She said that they drop older women over her...it is for sex. Marriage is another ball game. If they do marry, it is because they have earned their way into buying someone they couldn't otherwise obtain. Like old and ugly Hollywood actors with Stepford wives.

      Delete
    18. @anonymous girls

      I'm sorry you felt my comment was in any way derogatory. I am pleased, mostly to have found the manosphere and Andrew's blog, but also because all of their advice has done wonders for my dating life and self esteem.

      I am really not gold digging, I want what you want, love and marriage with a great guy. I found my age range and was just advising other girls to date older men. I did earn my degree and am doing quite well. I live comfortably in a very expensive city without my parents' help. I make more than most men my age.

      I just wanted to let some older women know that what Andrew is saying is not BS, older guys prefer younger girls and will go out of there way to be with a hot, young girl. I thought it would be a helpful if not welcome truth :(

      And also want to give a first person account. this advice is working and making me a happier person.

      I'm filtering for good-hearted men that won't be inclined to dump me when I turn 30.

      Delete
    19. Thank you for the last post. Note that I am in my early 20s as well, happy to have found this blog. And I value your advice. Maybe I am more understanding because my ex is dating someone 19 as a 26 yr old.

      However, I do find it important to realize, given the title, that 30+ women are reading these posts. They are looking for love and marriage as well and perhaps more critically so then us. Remember that we could be single and reading this blog 10 years from now. Let's try to be a little sentimental to the feelings of those women. Not everyone is lucky enough to find love and others are learning to chose men a little late in the game. But love is possible for all.

      Delete
    20. @Anonymous at 4:42 PM

      k, anon, your opinion of me means absolutely nothing to me. I do very well. I take Andrew's advice meaning I wait a while before I ever go to bed with a guy. Good luck with your situation

      Delete
    21. Just because she doesn't want to be perceived as a gold digger doesn't mean she is one! What kind of fallacy of logic is that? Maybe she simply isn't a gold-digger but knows that a young woman going for an older guy might be suspected of that and so she is trying to show her true colors (i.e. not gold).

      She has said she isn't a gold-digger, makes more money than most men her age and likes 27+ y/o men because they are looking for commitment. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

      And the whole bit about older guys preferring younger girls' looks...well, 9 times out of 10 that's true so that was no revelation though it will strike many 30-something women as harsh. Obviously, older guys value other things besides looks as well and many can't get the younger woman, etc.

      Delete
    22. Anon 3:34, you are doing the right thing. Having a career also means that your children will enjoy the security of two income-producing parents, and that your household will sustain less impact in an economic downturn. To me, maintaining a career is as important as working out to stay fit. :)

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    23. All this talk about "gold-digging" is ridiculous. Women are attracted to power, and that includes financial power. It says something about the man, more than his income alone. Andrew did a post about intelligence where he mentioned different kinds of power - all of these are relevant. But financial power or success is particularly relevant because it is a sign of intelligence, ambition, dedication, commitment and a masculine mindset. Any woman who says she doesn't care about it, is either lying, very very young or has few options with men and is trying to convince herself it doesn't matter.

      I am 22 and the guys I am looking to date are primarily 26-29. I'd be open to guys that are 30-34, but I will be far more skeptical - in fact, I rarely go on dinner dates with guys in this age range. I've always been fairly attracted to older men, so if I meet a decent and good divorced man who's 45, I would be happy to go on a dinner date. But even for me, men who are 50+ will usually feel too old. When I turn 25, I would probably expand the age gap a little. At 22, even though I feel old for my age, I will fear a 45 year old man wants e primarily for my beauty.

      J - I think you need to realize that although men and women often look for similar values to settle down, they are biologically different and experience different attraction cues. For men, those are related to beauty and for women, the are related to power. Women possess more of these attraction cues in their 20s, men have more of them after 30 and further down the line. You might be dismissing 30-something men yourself, but the reality is that most women don't. And this blog, like most blogs giving women dating advice, has to base itself on reality, not wishful thinking or exceptions to the rule. At least if women are to gain something from it.

      Delete
    24. aGirl, I understand. Sometimes men insist on paying for the dates and my persistent refusal would seem rude. I always offer to pay and back off when rejected. I am most comfortable with taking turns, i.e., who picks the place and invites the other one, pays. However, older men seem to have this big-brother mentality, that they ought to treat you like a younger sister and take care of you and pay for everything. I dated several guys like that, the bigger the age gap, the less likely he would let me pay. :/

      I am in my 30s and dated several 50+ year-old men, they definitely welcome women who are younger. I wasn't digging for gold, I just enjoy the conversation a lot more than with guys my own age or younger.

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    25. Anon @ feb 18, 5:39 PM

      In response to your comment,"however, older men seem to have this big-brother mentality, that they ought to treat you like a younger sister and take care of you and pay for everything. I dated several guys like that, the bigger the age gap, the less likely he would let me pay. :/ "

      I agree. I've noticed this with older men too, and it can be really weird when he treats you like a little sister but you know he wants to boink you at the same time.

      Delete
    26. Didn't mean to sound crude, just an observation.

      Delete
    27. "I find an issue in someone that explicitly mentions paying for the 3rd date to 'not look like a gold digger'."

      I think that if the man is inclined to think you're a golddigger, then he's the one with the issue. I have to admit to being old-fashioned. I do prefer for the man to pay on the first date (any more isn't necessary unless it's his thing). I was taught that that is how a gentleman acts and I'm put off by any man who doesn't do that. So yeah, call me old-fashioned. If a man I date has a different opinion to me then it's obviously a clash of values.

      I did have a rich boyfriend and was a bit ticked off that he didn't pay for me so much. Wait, let me explain. It's not because I wanted a chunk of his wallet. It's because he'd deliberately avoid making romantic gestures that would incur a cost because he had some complex about all women being golddiggers. Basically, he was hedging his bets. I actually spent more money on him in the relationship despite me being a bit of a poor sod who was too hopelessly besotted. I don't like keeping score but clearly that arrangement didn't work.

      Delete
    28. Dear Anon 5:53, no I didn't find your comment crude at all. I am OK with the big-brother/protector/provider attitude as long as he respects my opinions and wishes. :)

      Delete
    29. Anonymous @February 18, 2013 at 3:14 PM

      In response to your comment,

      "Definitely - I would think it more strange were a guy my age to want to get settled down so young. I also like the idea of an older guy having dated a wider variety of women and so the chances of him knowing what's important to him in a relationship are higher, "

      just wanted to add that a man who "dated a wider variety of women" is NOT necessarily more likely to know "what's important to him in a relationship." I'm not saying it's not possible at all, BUT, a man who has dated a variety of women could possibly be a player, one who tires and discards of women easily, is indecisive, unwilling/unable to commit, or even a combination of all these. Whereas the man who "just knows" that a woman is the one for him without having had to date "a variety of women," just seems like a man who would be more willing to commit and remain faithful. There's also a major advantage of him having less baggage, and the woman he's married to not having to worry about being compared to all the other women he's been previously with.

      Delete
    30. Personally, I find the waxing on about large age gaps (10+) between 20s women and 30s/40s men to a bit trite (on the Game for 30s Gals no less!). The stats linked earlier clearly show that most marriages have an age gap of 3-4 years. Even 100 years ago the average age difference wasn't more than that.

      Im a 23 year old and while I do find older men attractive its not something I would seek right now, personally. Id much rather marry a guy 4-7 years older and look forward to him becoming a silver fox. Now, as I get older and if I remain single I would have no problem being with a man who is 10+ years older, as it seems the age gap becomes less of a problem as both parties increase in age. There is a world of difference between a 20 and 30 year old, but the difference between, say, a 35 and 45 year old are less pronounced.

      I am somewhat of an "old soul". Im intelligent, introspective, and mature for my age (although it seems every other 23 feels the same, LOL) and I have a hard time taking the 35+ year olds who hit on me seriously. I know sex/looks are the main motivator for men but beyond that I don't know what else they could possibly see in me. When one comes up to me I automatically filter them out as being mainly interested in sex or arm candy. Even though most guys 4-7 years older than me will still be mostly interested in sex I at least know that there is a higher likelihood of them being attracted to me on a personal level, outside of physical attraction.

      If the large age gap works for you thats great and I wish you the best of luck. However, given the statistical evidence it isnt common nor is it something most women are into, unless the man in question is exceptional and has an overabundance of a specific characteristic she is attracted to ie power, fame, money, wisdom, dentures :)

      Delete
    31. I disagree that a 35 y/o couldn't come to like your personality once knowing it. So, yeah, both the 27 y/o and the 35 y/o are going to be initially drawn to your looks (assuming they find you attractive) but both will take your personality into account for marriage.

      Why do you assume that the 27 y/o is any more likely to like you for your personality than the 35 y/o? Why not have more confidence that your personality might be appealing to a wider range of men?

      It sounds like feminist propaganda trying to convince men and women that they can't have enough in common with each other if there's a larger age gap. How do they know? Maybe the odds are that they won't have as much in common but if both find each other attractive and like each other's personality then go for it. If not, don't.

      Delete
    32. @HanSolo

      "Why do you assume that the 27 y/o is any more likely to like you for your personality than the 35 y/o?"

      The same way people in the same social groups, SES, religion, hobbies, political views ect tend to have more in common (thus seek each other out for relationships) so do people who share the same generation. Our personalities are a culmination of our biology, upbringing, and cultural references; the latter two being influence by the generation we grew up with. Chances are a man who is closer to my age will be more compatible with me in that regard. Thats just a fact. Thats not to say there are no 35 yr olds that would be compatible but generally speaking a 27 yr old would be a better fit.

      "It sounds like feminist propaganda trying to convince men and women that they can't have enough in common with each other if there's a larger age gap."

      Like I stated in my previous post, the average age difference in American marriages has been 3-4 years since 1890. This is not the result feminist bougie women, its a preference women have for men who are slightly older than themselves, exceptions notwithstanding.

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    33. @Y

      I agree with you that the odds are better for a 23 y/o to have more in common with the 27 than the 35 y/o. And we agree that there could be some 35 y/o's that are compatible with the 23 y/o.

      My point, which isn't directed at you any more since we're basically in agreement, was more to argue against any notion that no 35 y/o could be compatible with a 23 y/o and that some might be more compatible than many 27 y/o's would be.

      I certainly don't dispute the average age diff. What I do not like (and I'm not lumping you in with it) is that some people like to shame larger age differences of say 10+ in a blanket kind of way. I'm not saying young women should get with older men, just that if that younger woman and older man want to and are compatible then more power to them.

      Delete
    34. Young girls who date men 7+ years older than then are really not thinking too far ahead but in the moment. As I see marriage as something permanent that last 50+ years, I do not just look 10 or 20 years in the future.

      Human are living longer and longer while taking less care of themselves. I have no desire to be stuck playing nurse to my husband while I'm still wanting to travel Europe in my retirement. That is a large reason why I cap my upper age limit to about 7 years.

      Not only that, marriage is more than just about looks and money. It is also finding someone who is my best friend. If you have a generation gap, that is less likely to be the case.

      Not to mention the "life experience" of someone that much older than me will probably have. I want someone to experience life with me, not watch as I experience it.

      And for those seeking much younger mates because they are more attractive? A word of caution if you will - someone who is in their mid to early twenties is still growing and learning about themselves. Who they are now, is not who they will be 10 years from now. Yes, everyone changes through time, but not nearly as much as in our youth.

      Personally, if I was a man, I'd take a hot 30 year old over a hot 20 year old. Just by virtue of being young, the 20 year old looks hot. The 30 year old had to work at it. That ups her chances of not "letting herself go" once she has a ring on her finger. =P

      Delete

    35. "Personally, if I was a man, I'd take a hot 30 year old over a hot 20 year old. Just by virtue of being young, the 20 year old looks hot. The 30 year old had to work at it. That ups her chances of not "letting herself go" once she has a ring on her finger. =P"

      Well said J

      Delete
    36. To each her own. If you can find that man your same age that wants to marry and so forth then more power to you. But some women can't and so them it's better to marry an older man and then be single for the last 10 or 15 years of her life than alone her whole life.

      So, let's take a 25 y/o white woman with a 35 y/o white man. Let's assume she lives to 81 (http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/usa/life-expectancy-white-female) and he lives to 76 (http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/usa/life-expectancy-white-male).

      That means they can have 41 years together and then she will have 15 years alone after he dies. So, that is a real likelihood but you have to compare it to her options. If she loved him more than the other men she could have had then I'd say 41 years together is pretty awesome. Plus about 40% of marriages are going to end in divorce so it's not like all of them are going to last til death anyway.

      As to not being able to be friends or best friends with a man that's 10 years older I just flat-out disagree. Maybe the odds are smaller but it can still happen.

      Finally, speaking only about looks, the hot 20 y/o is much better because she has another 15 to even 20 years ahead of her of being hot or fairly hot whereas the 30 y/o only has 5 to 10 years ahead of her. I don't think that 30 y/o's really have to work at it much more than 20 y/o's to be hot. Once the woman is 35, yes, but 30 is still young enough that she'll probably only be very slightly below her peak beauty.

      Delete
    37. Another thing, J. For the single white woman in the US, her life expectancy is 81 per the link I provided. For black females, it's 77.6. But let's use 81. A typical woman who is 30 will not likely be able to have a marriage of 50+ years. First of all she'll only be alive for 51 more years and even if she marries a man her age he will likely only live to 76 (though life expectancy of today's 30 y/o man might rise) so that would only be 46 years together.

      If someone wants a marriage of 50+ years she better marry in her early or mid 20's to a man in his 20's of good genes, health and lifestyle.

      Delete
    38. "Finally, speaking only about looks, the hot 20 y/o is much better because she has another 15 to even 20 years ahead of her of being hot or fairly hot whereas the 30 y/o only has 5 to 10 years ahead of her. I don't think that 30 y/o's really have to work at it much more than 20 y/o's to be hot."

      Maybe it differs based on what part of the country you live in, but I find women start to age once they get around 25. Some, granted, slowly, but once you get to that age, looks quickly stop being about "lucky genes" and start becoming about how much effort your are willing to put into it. You need to eat right, you need to exercise, you need to not chop off your hair just because you are now a mom and it is "easier", you need to continue to dress nice even if you are so tired you just want to put on sweats, you need to take time to do your beauty regiment even if you need to put food on the table and run that errand!

      American women are notorious for letting themselves go after they get married. If you want to remain "hot" you have to work for it (and want it), and yes, that means starting as early as your mid-twenties. I wish someone had told me that! Maybe I wouldn't be single today. I started to really care about my looks at 28, and sadly, I think it is too little too late. I think I did too much damage to my body during that time that no amount of anything will turn me pretty.

      True story, my hair dresser is Korean and said to me, "When you finally get a boyfriend, come back here and I'll put highlights in your hair." I had an appointment where I needed to get my hair done but my normal hair dresser was all booked, so I had to go someplace else. The lady who did my hair was American and I asked her about highlights. She said, "Yeah, you should get them, it will help you get a boyfriend." I know what philosophy I like best.

      And, although I don't disagree with what you are saying about age, I'm not talking about living 10 to 15 years alone because your husband passed on. That is fine. I'm talking about when they are still alive but are so bad they can't take a shower, dress themselves, or even go to the restroom without help. I see it *all* the time today. I see it with my own parent's who are falling apart in their mid-60's. I see it with my 80 year old grandma who has to be taken care of like an infant.

      Maybe it is more an issue of health and how important it is for you to try to live healthy than age, but I rather be single and be able to live for myself than married to someone I have to live for before they can't do it themselves. If you have never cared for an elderly person, it's hard to understand.

      Delete
    39. So, if you don't want to take care of a man who is old then I guess you'd have to marry a man about 10 years younger than you! lol If you only marry one that's 5 years younger then you'll probably die about the same time based on the stats and have to take care of each other. If he's 10 years younger then you'll die 5 years before him and he'll have to take care of you!

      All this just seems like too much thinking. Find someone you're mutually in love with and be happy as long as you can and take care of each other when that time comes.

      Delete
    40. J, you have good points. I never thought of that...

      Why do you say it's too late for you in the looks department?

      Delete
    41. Not speaking about J but too much tanning, drinking or drugs or other miscare can age a woman and there is little to do once the ageing has set in.

      Delete
    42. Yeah! I'm going to stop drinking. After drinking at university, I can tell it's aged me even if only a little bit. Crazy! The tanning is the worst though. Luckily I don't really tan because I live in Scotland but I still go out with sunblock every day without fail in order to block the UVA rays. I read somewhere that this is far more effective than buying anti-aging creams later on.

      Delete
  17. @J: I agree with you!
    This is not bragging, just my 2cents, but as a "hot" 26 y.o I get hit on by a lot of guys from my age (and younger cause I look 20) to late thirties, even forties.
    The thing is, because I have the choice, if I want to get married now i'll look for the 27-30 guys who are young and fresh. But rarely the 30 + guys! That's an opinion I share with the majority of my girl friends. And even if older guys appear to be be more mature and stable, they sometimes have others issues that makes them not so desirable (bitterness, not so fun...)

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    Replies
    1. Assuming for argument's sake that you are hot then that makes you a small minority of women and yes, you can have your pick of many men (though not all).

      What advice would you give the average or ugly girl, though? You share your opinion with your girl friends that if you were to marry now that it would be with a 27-30 y/o man (nothing wrong with that for you). I'm curious, are all your friends as hot or hotter than you? If so, then your advice isn't harmful really since you have so many men to choose from. But what about those who don't have so many. Don't you think that they would do well to expand their age range to up the number of good guys to choose from?

      That likely would mean they (the average and ugly girls) should consider older as well, if they are 26 then a woman should consider a man into his mid 30's but possibly even a year or two younger if he has his act together, though it's likely that the slightly older guy will have his career more in place and be looking to marry.

      Even hot girls should probably be willing to think upwards in age. The 26 y/o hotty should keep her mind open to guys in their early 30's too because she might just find that great match that she would have otherwise excluded by keeping a limited age range.

      Basically, if keeping a narrow age range works for you and you can easily find a great guy to marry or date then continue. But a lot of women complain that they can't find a good guy, so, expand your age range a bit and see what you find. In the end you don't have to go for the older guy but it probably makes sense to at least consider the possibility.

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    2. I am not the poster above but I can answer that. I am 25 graduate student and fairly attractive. I think the age range is a bit narrow, personally 25-32 for me. But I don't think there is such a thing as 'ugly girl', though some have better features and genetics than others. Before throwing in the towel to date whomever you can get. You must work on yourself first. At least try to get around your age if you have time...meaning you are in your 20s. In your 30s, I agree with your mentality, even though you should never let yourself go. Even in marriage, never let yourself go.

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    3. So maybe you don't like the word 'ugly' but will you at least agree that there are women who men find to be physically attractive, average and unattractive?

      I think that the important people to ask though is men. Do they believe there are unattractive or ugly women? Obviously, the answer is yes. But such women can find bf's or husbands if they will work on themselves and lower their expectations to more realistic levels.

      I had one friend that was on the unattractive side of things who was wanting guys that were on the attractive side in all three areas of career, looks and personality. She was being totally unrealistic.

      Also, I think your age range of men is reasonable, especially if you're not finding it too hard to find good guys to date.

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    4. The reason I had such a response to the word 'ugly' is because most woman are complacent to throw in the towel. Unfortunately, ugly in today's day and age refers to body over features, due to the obesity crisis in America. I have seen plenty of average looking woman, at best, get married over their overweight attractive friends simply because of a little effort. With all the resources out there to make anyone attractive, I have run across very few women that are beyond repair.

      I work on myself all the time. And I think it is important for less attractive woman to realize this. No one grows up and maintains 'model status' with little effort. Not that I am 'model status', just presenting an extreme.

      Granted I have my own issues to deal with, even with enough guys to date. Building your career as a women foremost has its repercussions. I could not hold a relationship with men my age from ages 18 to 24. Men my age would consider seriously dating me until it got difficult with my moving around. It was easier to date good-looking, easy girls that followed them, idolized their wit, and were present for sex without LDR. It hurt to break up like that, especially when these men would break all contact (yet follow you on social networking for whatever reason, impeding moving on).

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    5. I agree that if a lot of the young overweight women would lose some weight that their underlying features are anywhere from average to attractive and certainly better than when being hid by 10, 20, 50 or more lbs of extra weight.

      (And, no, women, please don't go to unhealthy extremes in trying to lose weight. Men don't prefer anorexic looking girls over more normal-but-not-fat looking girls. However, they might prefer the really skinny girl over the fat girl.)

      Hope you're in a more stable situation now so you can have a good relationship and even marriage with the right guy. It sounds like you might be.

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    6. "I get hit on by a lot of guys from my age (and younger cause I look 20) to late thirties, even forties."

      I see versions of that line a fair bit on this blog and finally felt compelled to comment. Girls generally take being "hit on" as validation. Don't.

      Us guys hit on a lot of girls. The gap between girls that I'll hit on vs girls that I'll commit to is massive. If that makes you feel better about yourself, you're like the guy that jumps at and does tricks for any sort of female attention. Be better than that.

      On the other hand, you have a lot of "high value" guys wanting to commit to/marry you, pat yourself on the back. You're clearly awesome.

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    7. "I agree that if a lot of the young overweight women would lose some weight that their underlying features are anywhere from average to attractive and certainly better than when being hid by 10, 20, 50 or more lbs of extra weight. "

      I kind of agree. I'm overweight myself and have been for a while although I recently lost 20lbs. I still have another 20lbs to lose to look my best. After I read something in this blog about waiting to see which men are attracted to me, I decided that it was worth investing the hard work to put myself in a better position. Then there is the obvious translation into feeling great about yourself.

      "Us guys hit on a lot of girls. The gap between girls that I'll hit on vs girls that I'll commit to is massive. "

      This is actually one of the most uncomfortable truths I've read on this blog. It makes me slightly queasy sometimes when a man is hitting on me because I can't work out how real it is. I dislike it if a man calls me "beautiful" or "gorgeous" but I still accept the compliment graciously. I have to say that I completely agree with you about not jumping at any guy who gives you attention. That is not something I do in spite of how I occasionally feel otherwise. And I believe that some men can sense if you're the type of woman who would jump at any attention, and use that to their advantage.

      I think your comment was very apt. Part of why some women say a lot of stuff like that is because of oneupmanship over who is the hottest. I know it sounds silly but it happens. Sometimes other women have tried to jeopardize my chances with certain men by telling me "oh he's not really into you. He's only being friendly". And on occasion I've had some women tell me I'm not as hot as them because they've slept with more men than me. If I'm not interested in shagging someone for the sake of it, some tell me I'm frigid. This stuff hasn't stopped even though I'm almost in my mid-twenties. I still don't understand why some women choose to run each other down. We are all beautiful in our own way.

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    8. Lucy, some men will exaggerate their compliments to try and get in a woman's pants. So, watch what men do, not what they say. However, excessive compliments seems more like a chump move and so those guys probably aren't getting laid a lot unless they have a lot of charm and other attractive stuff going for them.

      As to number of sex partners having anything to do with the female's attractiveness, no. Men looking for casual are willing to sleep down in "quality" so a woman can basically rack up as high a number as she wants.
      It seems like projection of those women's thoughts about how only really attractive or charismatic or famous men can sleep with 100's of (beautiful) women. And N is an incomplete piece of data, you need to know how hot the women were.

      What does tell you about how attractive a woman is overall (not just looks) is who wants to have a relationship with her. And regarding her looks, get a representative sample of men with no ulterior motives to rate the looks and then you'll know. Men can tell pretty quickly if a woman is a 5 or a 7 or a 9 in looks to him.

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    9. Thanks for your response, HanSolo. Just to clarify that I'm definitely aware of that but I think it's a lot less bother to say 'thank you' than to start outwardly scrutinising a comment. I generally don't like compliments like that because they feel very insincere and I don't want to be put on a pedestal or objecified. Most of the guys who hit on me seem to be like that. It's actually quite hard to find a normal healthy guy with no baggage let alone someone I have a connection with and who is on a level with me (I mean in terms of how they talk to me and not about looks or anything like that). How funny.

      "What does tell you about how attractive a woman is overall (not just looks) is who wants to have a relationship with her." Now that sentence is the truth. And I can't answer that for myself yet as I'm in a situation where I'm meeting hardly any men. So there you go. I'd rather focus on my overall quality as a person than get tied down worrying about what I look like. Good point.

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    10. @Lucy

      I am about to totally launch into guy trying to solve your problem mode!!!! lol But I hope you at least appreciate the good intention even if you might prefer me to solely sympathize (and yes, I'm totally stereotyping the male/female response). But here goes.

      Not sure where you are but have you tried online dating? On POF, there are 2-3x as many men as women (you can actually search and see how many are returned in the area you're looking at) and so even though there will be a lot of incompatible men there are likely to be a few that would be great guys. Guys don't get written often either so you could try writing a few that seem like good yet realistic matches. As in other situations, don't go for someone way out of your league or they'll likely just want casual sex if anything. And what's the worst that could happen? Likely they just don't respond and look on the bright side! ;) You could gain a bit more empathy for what it's like to be a man.

      I think focusing on your overall quality as a person is good...and not to be a dick...but don't you think your looks are part of your overall being? Yes, men (and women) can get too superficial about looks sometimes but there is also a good reason that men (and to a lesser degree, women) care about looks (and height and teeth) and such. Fertility, healthiness, and strength were things that allowed our ancestors to survive and reproduce and we have inherited being attracted to many of those things.

      Anyway, I assume that you might be meaning that you don't just focus solely on your looks and if so then I think that's great. However, I would highly recommend giving some attention to your looks (unless they're already maximized) since even raising your looks by 0.5 or 1 point out of 10 by doing some of the things mentioned above will really open up more options in men to you.

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    11. CastleFebruary 18, 2013 at 4:55 PM

      "I see versions of that line a fair bit on this blog and finally felt compelled to comment. Girls generally take being "hit on" as validation. Don't.

      Us guys hit on a lot of girls. The gap between girls that I'll hit on vs girls that I'll commit to is massive."

      ---------------

      this is very true. my standards for just getting laid are WAY lower than my standards for marriage, both in terms of physical beauty and inner beauty.

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  18. Where is the love? This seems like an instruction booklet to breeding. I would rather be single than settle for someone who wasn't my best friend and lover. I value friendship more now than I did in my 20's.
    Do you guys consider love at all? Does personality matter? Does your attractiveness for a woman increase the more you like her personality? It works that way for me. You can be a stud but if you're dumb, take a hike.
    Does being a '10' trump intelligence every time? I wonder because I hear a lot of guys say, bitches be crazy! Will you put up with the crazy as long as she's hot?

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    1. a man is more likely to fall in love with you if he is attracted to you. much more likely.

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    2. Kendra, welcome to the difference in male and female attraction triggers.

      Looks are more important to men than to women. Is that fair? Who knows? But women are attracted to charismatic, successful, and famous men. Is that fair? It is what it is and it's best to accept reality and make the best of our lot in life instead of wanting to change everything around us--a nearly impossible task.

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  19. I'm in my late 20's and consider myself to be mature, however, because I've often been told that I look younger than my age, when I have been approached by older men, (who I know are attracted to me and like the fact that I'm younger than them) I don't always feel like I'm taken as seriously or shown as much respect by them, in spite of the fact that I'm intelligent and mature.

    Although I would prefer a man who is only 1-3 years older than myself, I would be open to dating someone 5-10 years older. However, I do have some questions. The first being, do older men really view women 5-10 years younger than them as equal partners worthy of their respect, or just silly young bimbos? I frequently hear about mens' preference for younger women, but even if they manage to get one, they'll sometimes complain about her lack of maturity and treat her like she doesn't know anything, even that's not true. Another question I have is, are some older men who pursue women 5-10 years younger just looking to re-live some of their youth? And would there be issues down the road when the man is 10+ years older?

    Lastly, how do you filter between the men who are still single in mid-30's because they haven't found the right woman, as opposed to those who might just be immature, players, or potential confirmed bachelors?

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    1. I view younger women as potentially equal partners. But that depends on the content of their character. If they are intelligent, mature, kind and intellectually curious then I will grant them the respect they are due.

      So, I think a lot of guys do want to respect the woman they're with and if you give them a chance to get to know you they will find that you are intelligent and mature. You just have to filter out the ones that aren't looking for that.

      Some men may be looking to relive their youth a bit but as long as they treat you well and are looking for long-term (assuming you want that) then what's wrong with them feeling pleased with being with a younger looking woman such as yourself. There could be issues later on if he is an extreme case but if he's treating you great and wants to commit then I wouldn't worry about it too much.

      How do you filter? As Andrew said above you can bring up related topics after a date or three such as what he thinks about his nephews or what he thinks about what's wrong or right with relationships these days. I wouldn't come right out at the start and say, "Are you looking to get married in 1 year and be faithful forever and have kids?" If you are observant and lead the conversation in the right direction people will reveal a lot about themselves.

      And finally, look at how he treats you. If he's being really aloof and just into it for the sex then you have your answer. If the conversations are great and he's respectful (and that can be in addition to great sex too) and introduces you to his friends and family eventually and wants to do lots of stuff with you and make you his gf then you likely know he's looking for long-term commitment.

      I don't think it's that hard. Just use some common sense and get a couple trusted guy friends (that aren't secretly in love with you so that they sabotage you with their advice) or a brother that you can get the male perspective from on the guy's actions.

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    2. I have a question I need an outside male(/males) opinion on, I have two brothers and have both of their stances (which are the complete opposite - confusing!)
      I like my half brothers best friend, he's got a personality type that I like and seem to just click with, maybe I'm imagining it I don't know, I really only meet a guy I feel that kind of drawn to once every few years though so I feel its worth getting a second opinion. He's also friendly with my other brother, we all socialise together sometimes but we have our own friends too.
      Few obstacles though, namely that he has a girlfriend, and he's also nearly a year younger (I normally only ever like guys a good few years older).
      And we drunkenly slept together a little while ago after I went on a night out with my half brother and his friends, they fell asleep and he sat up chatting and having a drink, (the rest is kind of a blur).
      I'm aware potentially moving in on someone else's boyfriend is not reeally a nice thing to do, but you know we're both young, boyfriends and girlfriends do come and go.
      Anyway after that happened I just thought well I've fucked it now anyway so just forget about it, we were in touch for a little bit afterward but then the other brother found out and kicked off, I went back to the city I study in, and I've not had much opportunity to spend time with him since, but when I have as I said I just thought I'd destroyed any potential for anything anyway so I've just been generally friendly but not gone out of my way the odd time I have seen him.
      I've spent a bit of time with my half brother recently and he brought it up (in context of something else I can't remember what now)so I had the opportunity to quiz him a little bit, he seems to think that his mate likes me, he said his mate has said I'm a laugh, that if he split up with his girlfriend he'd want to be with me, a few things to that effect. My brother's response is always shut up you've got no chance,but they're quite banter-y lads anyway. I was also expecting about ten years of "That's not what your sister said!" because they're best mates, and tell each other everything, he wouldn't wind up my other brother because they're not on the same terms though they would each other, but he's not said a word.
      I got the impression my half brother wouldn't have minded if me and him got together (properly), but I'm wondering if he might be filtering what his friend has said through his own opinion (i.e he wouldn't believe that his friend would see his sister as a one off maybe?). He also seems to think the relationship is on the rocks, but I know he doesn't personally find the girlfriend attractive so obviously he's not going to see what his friend sees in her. If nothing else I'm just happy that he doesn't think badly of me now and that we can all still be friendly.
      Just for additional info he wasn't weird at all with me in the morning, chatty as ever, brought me a cuppa grabbed the seat next to me in the car etc. But as I said we kept in touch for a bit but no huge effort made to spend time with me, last time I heard from him was a random text on my birthday. The other brother was disappointed in me and I think upset that his friend crossed the line (though they're not nearly as good friends). He also has a close friend of his own that we've known since childhood that I think he would quite like to see me end up with. Any other time I've been around that guy both brothers have been there, and I don't know about him but I've felt conscious of it.

      Apologies for the essay, any thoughts/opinions?

      Cheers,
      Cat

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    3. Did you sleep with him before or after he had the girlfriend?

      Regardless, I'd wait until he's single before pursuing him if you decide to pursue him at all.

      As they say (and there's some truth to it), the way you get someone is the way you lose him, so if you take him away from his gf then that means he's the type of guy that can be taken away from a girl and might sleep with another girl while drinking.

      If you were both drunk and slept together while he had a gf then I'll give you a half pass because you were drunk but not a full one. If he did have a gf I think you should also look to make some changes in you as well. Not trying to be a harsh dick but if you want a really happy and faithful relationship with someone you have to act that way from now on and not go after other women's men. Please clarify if he had a gf when you slept with him because because I think that is a huge sign as to whether either of you is really ready and fit for a serious faithful relationship.

      That said, if you two really are compatible then you can go out with him when and if he's single again and see but I wouldn't try to steal him away from her. Also, I would continue your life and meet guys in the meantime and not just wait for him forever.

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    4. Thanks for replying 'twas a bit of a yarn,
      (especially as I'm asking advice on something maybe I shouldn't be doing)
      No he was with his girlfriend at the time, I have virtually no recollection of it happening to be honest (I don't drink like that often either it's just my brothers and their friends tend to constantly buy me drinks when we go out and that night I got too drunk).
      I don't go after other women's men, it's not something I've ever done before as it goes, but the older I get the more I see things less black and white, it might be that we are more compatible (or maybe not) the way I see it if there is someone else you like better then you're free to leave. I always followed these strict rules actually and to be honest it's not helped me meeting anyone I'm compatible with, and I see most people bending them. So I have sort of changed my outlook, but starting from not going after another woman's man ever (I wasn't looking to really throw myself at him now anyway, just engineer some situations I could spend a bit of platonic time with him, get to know him a bit better and then presumably if he thought I was worth it he'd leave of his own accord) to maybe in some circumstances it's ok.
      My bigger concern is whether he is ready for a relationship - not that I'm completely unconcerned about his having a girlfriend but I've never met her or heard much about her so she doesn't really seem real to me, plus I don't really believe you can steal someone, I reckon they'd stay if they wanted to stay - but as I said he's a bit younger than me, been in a relationship for a while, I'd be more concerned about maybe not being ready for a or another relationship.
      I've been out on a few dates and stuff since, I'm clearly the common denominator here ha ha but I meet a guy where there's that mutual attraction about once every four years literally, if that explains why I'm making a big deal over this one despite the potential drama, and why in this case I'm not wanting to put some random girls needs above my own harsh as may be, but I'm sure as hell another girls never done that for me before. The other stuff would be more of a concern really.

      What do you make of my brothers reactions'?

      Thanks again
      Cat

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    5. Well, meet up in groups with him and avoid drinking too much. I wouldn't pursue him though. Use the group hang-out time to see if you even really think he's relationship material or not. Don't try and sabotage his gf though. If he doesn't like her enough he'll break up. If he likes you more and her not enough then eventually he'll break up with her and make a move. The age thing doesn't matter so much though younger men are less likely to want a relationship...but he already has one (and slept with you to boot) so that says something.

      So, take it casual and let things happen and figure out in a more calm way if you really like him.

      Probably will be more useful for you though to forget about him and find someone else that is single and really examine why you find you have a connection with so few men. Maybe you're really picky or are hard to get along with! lol Or maybe you're an angel. Who knows? But, I'd really look inside you and figure out why you're not feeling a connection more often. Are you really picky and very rarely is anyone good enough for you? Think of the kind of man you want and are you what he would want? I'm not saying you're not. Just some food for thought with very little info about your looks or personality to say anything better.

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    6. Yeah I agree, it's not lazyness but I don't want to pursue, I just think I'd initially have to engineer some group situations myself and then be able to gage my interest (if its worth all the potential drama) and his.

      I've thought about this myself before, I'm going to go easy on myself and say it's not a case of me or anyone else not being good enough, more a case of just not coming into contact with the right personality types. For instance the men I've liked in the past have been at least 5 years older, they've tended to have practical kind of jobs, and kind of a laid back attitude, more rebellious in the past and kind of a hedonistic streak.
      I'm actually doing a difficult degree that I realised was not for me about a year in but I've stuck it out for the full four because I wanted to get the qualification. As a result I've made less close friends on the course than I have at High school, college, jobs people on other courses etc (although still quite a few), quite a few of the ones I most clicked with have dropped out or changed courses, I generally get on with most of the people but just in comparison to how many people are on it there's not many where I'd say we really click. (It's also about 70 per cent women). To be honest a lot of them come across as overly competitive and anal to me, although I don't find a bit of competitiveness as off putting in men as I do in other women.
      So I don't think I'm coming into contact with that many people that would be right for me on a daily basis, I'm laid back myself, I am a bit hedonistic although I'm not a waster - I am doing a difficult degree and I have managed to stick it out for four years and get good grades even though I hate it. I was pretty rebellious as a teenager as were most of my close friends - even the ones I met after, I think most university educated people, or at least the ones on the difficult courses, have very much stuck to the path that's expected of them all the way along. It's a good trait but I don't really understand them,and some of those types might think they like me at first but in the end I don't think I'd be what they'd be looking for either.
      Both of my brothers fit this personality type which is why we get on, (although the half brother has cheated on every girlfriend he's ever had so far which is a bit ominous). I know those personality types comes with their flaws but I'm that way out and I've never had a problem being faithful - although I'm a woman so maybe it's different (longest relationship was 4 years).

      I'm really wanting to know if anything can be gained from my brothers reactions though, especially as they know us both and have been completely opposite?

      Another long one!
      Cheers,
      Cat

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    7. HanSoloFebruary 18, 2013 at 2:58 PM

      "I don't think it's that hard. Just use some common sense and get a couple trusted guy friends (that aren't secretly in love with you so that they sabotage you with their advice) or a brother that you can get the male perspective from on the guy's actions."

      ------------------------
      never listen to a woman's advice on how to get men. for some reason it seems almost impossible for women to get out of their own heads and see things from a guy's perspective. add to that their secret inner bitch that wants to sabotage you, and you've got a recipe for bad advice. i would ask a male friend who is in a happily committed relationship, because then you reduce the chance that he himself wants to get in your pants. also, learn from your past experience. if you've historically been burned by the guys you are attracted to, then you know that next time you feel that way, be extra careful.

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  20. What exactly does it mean for a woman to look young for her age? Does Jennifer Aniston look young for her age? I'd appreciate an example, if possible. It seems to me that "you look young for your age" is becoming a safe way to compliment someone. I get that a lot even though I don't think I look young for my age. Some of my colleagues are in their late 40s and early 50s, they take good care of themselves so they don't look old, but they still look their age.

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    1. Good point. I think the same thing when American women say "I still get carded." Yeah, no shit, EVERYone in the US gets carded EVERYwhere. This means nothing.

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    2. Yes the difference for me is that they gasp in astonishment and go on and on about how young I look. Most people do not look like a teenager when they are 30. That's looking young for your age. Looking good for your age would probably be more appropriate, in terms of what you are talking about. But ultimately, it's not common. I live in LA, the mecca of Hollywood, so I would say people are more on the attractive side here than anywhere else in the US. So things are a little skewed here, so I imagine this does not apply to most people who live outside of the bubble I'm in.

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    3. Interesting how almost a dozen upper 20s, early 30s women on here have already used this one in the comments, yet they are still looking for a man.

      Andrew, you must draw the most statistically improbable subset of single women to your site, considering a ton of them proclaim to be gorgeous, "look younger for their age" and mature. It's amazing how they can't seem to find bfs and husbands.

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    4. I saw this after I posted below. I am always told I look much younger than I am- I always have. I live in a college town, so more often than not, the first question I get is what I'm studying or what year in school I am. Just two years ago (28 at the time), I was in a high school volunteering and got in trouble for being in the hallway, because another teacher didn't believe that I wasn't a student. Its genetic in a way- my mother is 55 and often thought to be in her early-mid 40's. It doesn't help that I am short and in good shape- I look like what my 22-25 yr old self should look like. I carry myself better, I have better style & am more confident... but that doesn't always translate to the perception that I am actually my age. I am routinely hit on by guys at least 3 years younger than me, but even as young as 21-23.

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    5. Anon @ Feb 19/13, 8:01 AM

      I too face the same issues in dating that you do in regards to looking younger than my age.
      Some of the posters (mostly men it seems) seem to think that because we (and many others) say we look younger, we're disillusion or something.

      I mean do they really think that the people who tell us we appear to be younger are really just engaging in a kind of false flattery? I don't know about you, but most of the people who tell me I look younger are not friends or family members so it's not like they have a vested interest in making me feel good about myself, so I think it's safe to assume that their assessment of my appearance is accurate.

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    6. You can look younger than your age and still not be attractive. Me, case in point. How do you know you truly look young for your age?

      -When you enter a high school to visit a friend who works there and another teacher tries to give you detention for walking the halls instead of being in class.

      -When you go on a cruise and everyone you sit with during meals asks what your major is or if you will be attending college that semester.

      -When co-workers spend 30 minutes, dead seriously mad at you, because they thing you are lying when you say you are 33.

      -When people say you have plenty of time to find a man and start a family until they hear you are 33 (which they can hardly credit) but now, at least, they comfort you with "At least you look young for your age!"

      =)

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    7. Look I am Asian, and I look young for my age even for an Asian. I am 30 and just today a guy freaked out because I told him I've been living in LA for 7 years now. He said, "So you moved here when you were 13??" He thought I was 19. This is sincerely not the case for most people. Most people do not age well. This is just my own experience. All of my friends are aging like normal people. I have been told by guy friends that I'm aging better than any girl they've ever known. I commented once about this because I was annoyed that it was said that all women at 30 are on the same scale of attractiveness. Besides looking young, I am gorgeous. And I know plenty of models, and beautiful women who are still single. I focused on my career so I did not want to be in a relationship for a long time. But even many well-known supermodels are single, etc. I don't speak for the majority of the women posting, or for the majority of the women in the world. I just spoke to clarify that this is not the case for me.

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    8. I genuinely look younger than my age and I'm 23 (I look about 3 years younger). It's not to do with how I dress. I have a baby face. But I'm under no illusion that it gives me any special advantage over other women. It doesn't.

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    9. Lucy, it will 10 or 15 years from now! ;) lol

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    10. If you look young but are not pretty then no it doesn't matter much. If you are pretty and you look young, it gives you an edge for sure, for a long time to come. Anyway this doesn't apply to most people so we should just move on to more productive topics that do refer to most people.

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    11. I guess I am just really bad at discerning how old a woman is. I won't be able to tell if two women are three years apart, if they both look their age. Do the Olson twins look young or old for their age (26)?

      I think I look exactly the same as I was three years ago, and I don't know how I am supposed to look for my age. Any how, I am glad that some of you look young for your age, I just won't be hanging out at the bar with you!

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    12. If you're not sure, then you do not look young for your age. Most celebrities do not look young for their age, they look good for their age.

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    13. When I say I look young for my age, I merely point this out because it's not a few years difference, it is about a decade. But most people are not aging like this, so there's no point in discussing it further. Most of my girlfriends are out of their peak and most assuredly losing their looks. It's nature.

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    14. For me it's part of how I act as well. I'm very smiley and have dimples as well as a youthful in my spirit. I don't think that is actually always a good thing because I get too many funny old men hitting on me which doesn't say anything about my level of attractiveness anyway. I'm pretty bad at discerning the age of some men. I met this guy in a bar recently and we decided to guess each other's ages. I thought he was 36 and it turns out he was 10 years younger. haha probably best to avoid those guessing games.

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    15. In fact, I used to routinely do three things in order to win favor with attractive older women in bars: (a) guess that they looked younger than they did, and (b) feign surprise when they told me the truth, followed by (c) an expression of disbelief.

      This was before I realized that women like men who are honest and sincere. Now I just avoid asking, or have no reaction when they tell me their age (if it comes up naturally). BUT, I did do those things for a long time and I have seen other guys do exactly the same thing.

      I am not saying that women are categorically lied to about how young they look, but I am saying that there is some reason to doubt verbal statements of surprise - people generally want to make you feel good about yourself, especially if they are trying to attract you.

      I think J at 11:27 above has the right idea: when people genuinely mistake you for someone much younger, then you might look young for your age. But if you are basing your claim to apparent youth on verbal statements from random people, or people who have reason to make you want to feel good, there is reason to doubt. (The latter includes people who are self-conscious about aging themselves and want to spread good "age-karma" around - my mom is like this. She tells people they look young for their age because she knows she looks old for hers and wishes someone would say she looks young.)

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    16. Yes, you are right about the examples J mentioned, and it is not common. I think when you are an extreme case you pretty much would know, and when everyone I come into contact with thinks I am younger, men, women, older, younger, on a daily basis. But this is so redundant because most people do not look young for their age.

      Delete
    17. Andrew is response to your comment,

      "but if you are basing your claim to apparent youth on verbal statements from random people, or people who have reason to make you want to feel good, there is reason to doubt. (The latter includes people who are self-conscious about aging themselves and want to spread good "age-karma" around - my mom is like this."

      I suppose there is some truth in what you're saying, but would people who have no reason to make a person feel good (or get in their pants) or who do not practice good "age-karma," like your mom, constantly tell someone they look younger if they didn't? I have 2 younger beautiful sisters who are always complimented for their looks because they are in fact gorgeous, but they do not however look their younger than age. I on the other hand am older than them, but am almost always mistaken for the youngest. Really, I'm not trying to get validation, but I just don't get how so many of the posters are calling bs when it comes to the fact that some older women Do actually look younger than their age. Seems like a need to bring these women down a few notches when there's really no reason to. Looking younger is part of one's physical image and describing it as part of our appearance is not really all that different than talking about our height, figure, ethnicity, hair color, etc.


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    18. "I just don't get how so many of the posters are calling bs when it comes to the fact that some older women Do actually look younger than their age."

      I can't speak for the other commenters that questioned these claims, but the sudden out-pouring of comments from women who felt the need to announce that they looked young for their age seemed strangely unnecessary, and made me question their motivations. Just in case there WAS any wishful thinking involved (I am not pointing fingers or claiming that there definitely was), I recounted my experience.

      Regarding the people like my mom... It is strange that she does this with no obvious or concrete motive; but I think people (especially naive white people) have this feeling of "communal good-will" whereby they do good to others because they feel that it is what one "should do" - and then they can go off and feel like they deserve it back, whether or not it ever actually gets reciprocated.

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    19. I was honestly asking for a point of reference. It just happens that no gal I know stands out as looking young for her age. To me, the concept seems very subjective and abstract. If someone asks me what it means to look exotic, I would pick a celebrity and maybe describe that she has green eyes with olive skin and etc. That's all. Definitely not trying to bring anyone down. Let's all go to sleep now so we won't look tired in the morning! :-)

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    20. As another commenter said, it's relevant in saying because when we are trying to get advice you can understand the context of our options better. Like when a woman on here says she is very attractive, then when addressing her questions you realize that she has more options than an unattractive reader. It's just to get a better, more fine-tuned analysis. If I ask a question about dating and I'm very attractive, or if I'm fat, I think those details matter. If I'm 30 but look a decade younger that just means I do have more options than a normal 30 year old. This is one of the reasons why I have personally stated this on the blog. But as I've said, I'm hyper aware that this is not common. I know only one other girl like this, and she's also Asian. Having said that, I think we need to move on from this. Suffice it to say, most women look their age.

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    21. My bed time reading brought me to an article about how sex makes someone look younger (by 7-12 years). Apparently some researchers believe that a vigorous sex life with the same partner slows the aging process, whereas the stress and worry from frequent casual sex does the opposite. Does anyone here have any observation or experience to share?

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  21. I get tons more attention from men in my early thirties than I did as a teenager and early twenties. (The turning heads on the street, asked for number at nightclub). Explain -- well, I did marry at 19, so my most 'eligible' years were spent married (unfortunately). But also, my personnel most attractive (physically) years were in my late 20s and early 30s. And my grandmother looked her personal best in her 40s and 50s.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Divorced...check.
      Early 30's...check.
      Goes to nightclubs...check.
      Delusional...check.

      You need all the luck you can get.

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    2. Speak for yourself (delusional). But I am lucky, I am now married to a fabulous man I'd rate a 10.

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  22. I don't think that divorced men should be eliminated from consideration entirely. Relationships fail for all sorts of reasons. Marriage shows a more serious commitment, but it doesn't guarantee that two people can stay together happily over an extended period of time. Anyone who has gone through a divorce has learned an important lesson of life. Not all of them are jaded, bitter, or lousy ex-husbands.

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    1. I actually agree with Andrew on this. I'd rather not date a divorced man, maybe if I had no other options, but not while I still do.

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  23. Could all the anonymous commenters choose a name or something. It gets really confusing to know who's responding to whom.

    In the Comment as, just choose the name/URL option and you don't have to put in a URL.

    Andrew, is there any way you can remove the Anonymous option? That way people have to use some name or other and they can even call themselves anonymous if they really insist on that.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. All right, all right. Depending on the nature of my comment, I will post as either Honey or Cough Syrup.

      Delete
  24. Andrew, you should compile some of this stuff in an e-book. I know I would buy a copy. :)

    "Men who haven't settled down by their late 30s are probably not going to settle down. In fact, the threshold might be even lower than 40; but if a man hasn't settled down by then he is probably incapable of engaging in or maintaining a long-term relationship."

    I agree with the above. I have a friend who's dating a guy twice her age. She's 24. They've been dating for 5 years and don't live together. He says he won't commit until he finds another job. I fear that she'll be in a situation where she'll never get the commitment she desires (although her wanting commitment is an assumption I've made). I definitely won't poke my nose in.

    On settling down stuff, I frequently hear men being described as 'commitment phobes'. I don't think this is true in most cases. But I know some men who had one great love in their early twenties and have been single for 5 years +, partly because they are looking for someone they can get that first love feeling with again. Do you know any man who identifies with that feeling? I get nervous around those men because they are really hard to please and I never feel like I can live up to their expectations. Maybe men really do fall in love harder.

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    1. A girl who's been dating someone in their late 30s/early 40s since she was 19 has larger issues than commitment, I think...

      In terms of being commitment-phobes, I think that's BS. It's what guys use to get out of jail free. See Andrew's post here on it:

      http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2012/04/men-dont-have-commitment-problems.html

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    2. I saw that post! :)

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    3. That's funny. Both the rules that the article criticizes and the "real rules" the article promotes are wrong lol.

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    4. Oops i posted this in the wrong place

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    5. I really liked this article:

      http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/08/fashion/08love.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

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  25. Yea! Thanks for this!

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  26. I legitimately get mistaken for much younger than I am and I'm starting to believe this is limiting the guys I'm able to meet. The older guys I should be getting to know and hoping to date see me and assume I'm younger and not serious... on the flip side, while you said not to date guys in their 20's, even if I meet someone in his late 20's (I'm 30), I think once he finds out my age it can 1) turn him off, 2) make him think he doesn't need to take us seriously, 3) he still treats me as a 20 something which at this point, probably isn't going to lead to love & marriage. I don't know how to counteract this effect. This is a family trait- appearing younger than we are- that many scoff at and say that I will appreciate more when I'm older (which I assume is true), but right now I feel like its killing my ability to attract the right men. Help!

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    1. Yes, it can limit you; Certainly does/did for me. I have been dumped by a couple of guys because (I found out later) I was too young and they were ready to settle down, and rather than asking me they assumed I wasn't. Except I was one respective 2 years younger than the guys that dumped me for that reason.
      I have also learned, through friends, that there were other guys that wanted to ask me out but didn't do it because I am so young. Except I am even older than some of those guys.
      Now I am dating a very sweet and very handsome guy who is several years younger than me, but he has a great confidence adn is very smart, so he has no issue with that. Took a while to get there though.
      Still, I would much rather look/act/seem/feel younger and live my life and be happy than looking my age.

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    2. Anon @ feb 19/13, 11:11 AM

      That's great! Happy for you, and best wishes to you and your man!

      Delete
  27. Andrew, with this blog being called the rules revistited and all, may you please do a post on "the rules" and give your opinion on them? Thanks.

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    1. It's been maybe 5 years now since I read that book, and to be honest I don't remember it well enough to write a review. My general impression is that it is a little too strict, and is now a little out-dated; but has a lot of valuable points. The general idea of "let a man demonstrate his interest" is important.

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    2. I think they recently a new edition with rules for online dating. haha It seems to have caused some controversy:

      http://jezebel.com/5912459/oh-great-the-rules-is-back-with-a-whole-new-bunch-of-dating-garbage

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    3. That's funny. Both the rules that the article criticizes and the "real rules" the article promotes are wrong lol.

      Delete
    4. Yeah. The main idea I got from it was to look good, let him show his interest and be confident and feminine, which isn't too far from what you say but I could see how some women can take the "let a man demonstrate his interest" part per this books suggestions a bit too far. Merci.

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  28. I'm about to be 32 (yikes!) and I'm still looking for my dream guy. I feel like I was just too shy in my twenties and because of that I expected guys to come up to me and pursue me. The only guys that do that are confident guys, and if they can approach one pretty girl they can approach a bunch of pretty girls. If they know they can do that, then they're not necessarily looking for a real relationship.

    I've grown more confident as I've gotten older and now that I'm a little wiser, this is the perfect time in my life to meet a real man. Someone that I can be crazy in love with but that also will be with me no matter what happens in life. I still feel that I should be pursued but I've come to realize that the guys that are really interested in you are the guys that might need a little help approaching you.

    I think Andrew is doing a good thing for women out there and has good intentions. Cut him a little slack. He's trying to help women get out of their own way so that real guys, the ones worth having you, actually have a chance. :)

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    1. Ah I'm in my twenties and know exactly what you mean. I don't expect men to always approach me but I can look like I'm not that interested when I'm simply a bit nervous. At least it helps me not look like I'm coming on too strong though.

      Completely agree with what you said. I think this blog has great intentions and it has really helped me. It's not always been the case that what a post says would apply in all situations. But I don't think that's the point. I like having a good general premise to follow. In all other scenarios I can use my brain to work out what's going on. Andrew makes no claim to being infallible as far as I can tell.

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    2. In fact I will be infallible soon, as I am about to be chosen as the next Pope ;)

      Lucy, check out this post if you haven't yet: Learn How to Be Social

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  29. "If you are single, over 30 and getting fat, you are pretty much screwed."

    Andrew, in response to your above comment, do you think that you could please do a post about fitness and nutrition? I think that would be especially helpful to the ladies who might be struggling in this regard and might give them some hope, as opposed to feeling like they should just give up.

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    1. One post related to that is "you go to the gym everyday and you love it." I never had a fitness routine but joined a gym soon after reading that post. We should never give up on a healthy and fit body! :-)

      Delete
    2. I actually don't know too much about nutrition or fitness. I will say this: I go the gym every other day, and I see a lot of women in there who don't break a sweat. If you aren't walking out of the gym out of breath and sweating profusely, you aren't going to lose any significant weight. Rather than having some complex workout routine, people (including men) wanting to ditch a few pounds in the gym should just workout like crazy until they break into a heavy sweat, maintain it for 20 minutes, then go home. Simple.

      As far as nutrition goes, I think another simple rule (which I posted on Twitter recently) should be followed: if you really want to eat something because it tastes good, don't. It isn't healthy. Simple.

      Those might not be the most comprehensive rules in the world, but if you aren't going to learn a ton about exercise and nutrition, you could do a lot worse than to follow them.

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    3. I would start taking a class like pilates, yoga, or a barre class. These classes give you structure and guidance, and produce proven results. Going consistently about 3-4 times or more a week is key.

      As for nutrition...just starting to eat healthy is good. Proteins with simple carbs, like vegetables. Avoid complex carbs like white bread--anything white. Substitute with brown rice. Vegetables, fruits, raw whole foods are important to eat. Eat a lot of protein, and fiber will curb hunger. Hmm, what else...avoid processed foods like the plague. Nasty, nasty stuff. Salads with chicken, vegetarian foods, green drinks, plenty of water--there is a lot to learn. But living a healthy lifestyle is crucial to feeling better and looking better, and you deserve it. :)

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    4. You have probably tried following something along the lines of Mia's advice (no offence to Mia!), which is "common sense" (stop eating fast food!) and the more "maintream" form diet advice. It doesn't really work and the evidence all points to it not being the most healthy way to eat. If you are fat, it is not because you are a "lazy slob" who doesn't "go to the gym" often enough. Overweight people, for the most part, don't like being overweight and have probably already tried to lose the weight and failed, not because they are lazy but because they were following the wrong advice. If it was that easy, almost everybody would be thin by now, wouldn't they? Everybody has heard/tried this.

      If a diet is so complicated (or annoying, e.g. counting calories) and not tasty that it's a huge effort to follow it, it's probably not going to last for the rest of your life (which is the end goal: adopting a healthier lifestyle where your body stays at a healthy weight without much effort).

      I would really encourage you to look into a "paleo" type diet. There is no one diet, different people have different approaches. You have to find what is best for you. Look into Tom Naughton at Fat Head (he also as a documentary on Netflix), Mark's Daily Apple, Robb Wolfe, Lierre Keith (The Vegetarian Myth), JImmy Moore, William Davis (Wheat Belly), Weston Price Foundation, Gary Taubes, Underground Wellness, etc.

      These people don't all say the same time. I certainly don't agree with all them. Some are low-carb, others don't eat dairy, etc. Find what is right for you. The overarching similarities are no grains (except WHITE rice)(no wheat is important), and eating real, whole foods.

      Personally, I am not low-carb nor anti-dairy. I eat a diet mostly constituting of vegetables (including tubers), meat, rice and fruit, and I cheat sometimes if I eat out (which is not that often). It is effortless for me to retain a 24" waist at 110lbs (I'm 5'4"). I know this may sound like heresy, but working out WON'T make you lose weight. Working out is healthy, good for your heart, etc., and good for toning your body, but not for actually losing weight. This must be done through dietary changes. Hope this helps!

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    5. Working out might not be the MOST effective way of losing weight, but it is crucial. Exercise burns calories, losing weight happens by burning more calories than you take in. However if a person is overweight or obese, their primary focus should be on diet. If they don't change their diet, exercise won't make much difference. Their diet is their MAIN problem. But if we're talking about women of a reasonable weight, exercise is important. Obese women already know they have a major problem to fix and they probably know they won't get anywhere with other dating advice if the remain obese. I am assuming this blog is read by women who are looking for more detailed advice. If you are a normal weight woman who's looking to drop a few pounds and tone up, exercise.

      I don't entirely agree with Andrew's advice on intensity level. Of course you should break a sweat, but there is no need to leave the gym gasping for air. I have in fact had several conversations with my trainer about this. For weight training, you need to really feel it. But when you're running at a 90% heart capacity, you're burning the carbs you've eaten that day and you'll leave the gym starving, filling up that amount next time you eat. Your body benefits more from exercising longer at 70-75%. It will leave you sweaty but not "dead tired". If you think the 'value' of our gym session depends on how out of breath you feel when you leave, you're wrong.
      Cardio is mainly for killing calories, so the amount of it should be adjusted to how important weight loss is to you. I would combine cardio/spinning with pilates/yoga and some occasional weight training.

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    6. Madeleine, I did not say working out was not important (see the before-last sentence), simply that it will not really help in losing weight. It is good for muscle tone, overall health, feeling good, etc. I know this is difficult to even consider because the message is blasted in the media as being gospel, but I think that if women are on this website in the first place, it is because their minds are open to alternative ideas (this is one of those "red pill" things.)

      When you exercise and "burn calories," your body is going to want to compensate for that exertion and you will feel hungry later on (do not take this to the letter, this is extremely simplified). Maybe for a while you will be able to control your hunger and eat smaller portions, leaving each meal a little hungry, hoping your stomach will eventually shrink, but this is not sustainable in the long run, think 30-40 years or more. Notice that in this case, you are indirectly calling overweight people lazy gluttons for "simply eating too much" and "not exercising enough." Surely there are overweight people that simply eat too much McDonald's, but everybody also knows at least one person, maybe even themselves, that "eat healthy" and exercise, counts their calories etc., but can't seem to shred those (last few) pounds. Maybe they aren't exercising enough, you say, or they should further restrict their calories! The thing is, losing weight should not be that difficult: our body wants to be healthy and pleasing to look at. Sure you will lose weight by eating 1200-1500 calories a day and exercising, but it is not sustainable in the long run (just look at the statistics), and it is definitely taking the difficult route. In the end, not through a lack of willpower but because we are animals, biology will make that we will eat as much as our body feels it needs. The goal is to be able to eat until you feel satiated and content while at the same time being a healthy (slim) weight.

      I have done pilates, spinning and yoga (I still practice a mix of pilates/yoga). Maybe over the years I was always going to the wrong gyms (and I live in a city where women are known for their nice figures), but I couldn't help noticing almost every single time that I had a better body than the teachers and trainers (and all my friends that studied kinesiology). Especially spinning, which I thought would be great because I had heard it burned like 800 calories a session, I couldn't help but notice all the women teachers' massive thighs/were kinda fat. I actually measured my thighs before and after the entire course, which lasted for a few months, I was unhappy to find that my thighs had GAINED an ENTIRE inch! Anyway, I guess that example is not that relevant except that maybe spinning isn't the best exercise for everybody :P Also, pure speculation, but I would guess that people who are in the fitness industry also tend to "eat healthy," that is, follow as much as possible a vegetarian diet while eating lots of "heart healty whole grains."

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  30. I'm in my 20's but I never spent any time on my looking at all up to now(would rather go to bookshops than clothing shops).

    Just decided to change from a while ago. Everybody around me tells me that I have great features even better than lots of pop stars. But since I never bother to doll myself up my "raw material" gets wasted seriously.

    I like Andrew's checklist on how to fix looking.

    Just lost 33 lbs in the past few months by exercising and dieting. Plan is to lose another 33 lbs so that my looking can change thoroughly. Began to take fashion risks some weeks ago on hair styles which I never ever dared to try in the past. It works amazingly well and has played magic on me since I *never* spent time on my looking in my past so as soon as I began to take care of it I feel like I have changed to a new person. After I lose the other 33 lbs(or at the least another 15 lbs, I think)successfully I will go through with Andrew's list of other items from hairstyle to heels etc. Though losing so much weight in such a short time is just so painful and takes just too much determinations. I hope I can hold up to the last and get successful. But I am having additional benefits as a side effect too - my health also has improved drastically.

    After that, I will relocate and move to some places which I will carefully plan taking all things into account. Will take both my careers and socialization potential into account when deciding where to move to live in for my next stage.

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    1. I'm anon Feb 29 1:03 pm and I'm replying to anon Feb 29 12:11pm (Gosh I should have used a name to comment)

      Very briefly, as for fitness, you need both cardios and strength trainings(Some muscles can improve shape and help to burn calories and it's extremely hard for a female to become a muscle person so not to worry about it yet). It's helpful if exercises can also increase flexibility, balance etc. Because in addition to losing pounds, we also need to improve postures and get good curves. Can start with less intense exercises and increase gradually. The principle for dieting is when trying to ensure all necessary nutritions intake for each day, lower the energy intake as much as possible. When I began to control my diet, I needed to weigh how much each categories of food I took carefully with measuring instruments. And the stomach shrinks as one eats less and less. And eventually I began to eat little naturally, without heavy controls because my stomach became smaller by itself as I ate little each meal for a while. Then relatively small meal would make me feel full. But when it does not automatically feel full by itself with appropriate amount of food I needed to control it consicously, that was why I needed to weigh all my food at the beginning of weight losing. I carefully caculated nutrition, energy for each food and how much energy I consume each day by various activities from the beginning too. Since I am on long term low energy diet, I also take nutrition pills everyday for minerals and vitamins. When doing strength training, then it's necessary to take in more proteins. Controlling diet does not mean eating as little as possible, but to ensure necessary nutrition intake while reducing energy intake. But I can go on some days talking about details on exercising and nutritions. In my opinion fitness by a large part is an intellectual endure rather than a pure physical one. Otherwise those pop stars wouldn't have spent incredibly large amount of money each year hiring counsellors for their nutritions and fitness. They'd be stupid to spend money like that if fitness and nutrition do not take intellectual investments. We are normal persons, can't afford that much money on those. So we can become self educated fitness and nutrition knowledge experts. There are lots of materials out there teaching tips on this. Need to do the research and study. God is fair, he lets you get the rewards if you are willing to work on it, including working on getting the knowledge. I still don't know enough yet either. For example, at the beginning I was afraid to grow muscles so I avoided strength training categorically. But then my increased knowledge told me that I was so wrong. So I corrected those on my daily plans. I also tried different ways to see which ways fit my body the most. I tried some very unscientific tips for very short while then gave up. Took some trials and errs.

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  31. I just have to say this about people supposedly looking younger than their age. Its great if you do look younger than your actually age, but in the end it means nothing. The point Andrew and other guys are making is to men, it doesnt matter how old you LOOK it matters how old you ARE, especially if he is looking to have children.

    For example, as I stated in a previous comment Im 23 years old. I was at work(a seasonal gig I did on the side) and one of the managers was asking me if I was in school. I told her no, Id graduated, and she asked me what high school I went to. I graduated COLLEGE no high school. Not to long ago I went with my dad to the car dealership and the finance woman asked me if I had a license. She though I was still a teenager.

    Despite some people thinking Im several years younger it would not be wise for me to adopt the dating mentality and general attitude of a teenage girl. Likewise it is unwise for a 30s woman to behave the same way a 20s woman does just because she allegedly looks years younger. I say this because it seems all the ladies who claim to look younger are using it as justification for not getting serious about finding a mate. Or explaining away an otherwise negative situation (being single and looking at 30+) with a pseudo-positive, self-serving reasoning (I look so young, that there is no need to rush!) Its fine to not be serious about finding a mate, however nearly every woman reading this blog is doing so because they want to attract a worthwhile mate sooner rather than later. You arent doing yourself any favors adopting this mentality.

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    1. Y-I can't speak for every other woman on this blog who says or does in fact look younger than her age, but as a woman in her late 20's who is told and actually DOES look younger than my chronological age, I can honestly say that I don't bring this point up for any of the reasons that you seem to think, and I'm pretty sure there's plenty of other young looking late 20's/early 30s women who are the same way.

      I think the whole younger looking is thing is brought up by some women to give the people who they are seeking advice from a better sense of what they have to work with. A woman who is fit, attractive and young looking will have most likely have a different set of options than one who is average/not attractive, out of shape, and looks her age or even older. So I think a lot of women who describe their physical appearance-which would include how young they look, are just trying to provide a context for their particular situation, so that those who they asking for advice from can provide them with guidance realistic and suitable to their individual circumstance.

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    2. Couldn't have said it better myself. :) Exactly. My options are very different than let's say, the next 30 year old, or most of my girlfriends my age that are still single. Unless they are just as hot, and still look younger. Y you are right in that it's not a good mentality to have. For me it's still hard to settle down because I'm just recently getting over a breakup. So it's hard to genuinely be interested in dating. That said, because I have so many options, resources of men seem endless, and you have the sense of unlimitedness, that men are dispensable, and you do constantly wonder what's right around the corner. I put off dating for awhile because of my career, and I am finally wisening up about my biological situation.

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  32. I do agree with you that women should act their age (and not their shoe size, as Prince would say), but there's nothing wrong with looking hot while doing so.

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  33. I met a guy recently, and he asked me if I cook. I was wondering how important this is to a man? Do men care about this? Should I be learning to cook as well at my age? Does it make me a better prospect if I want to be considered girlfriend or wife material? Or does it really not make a difference? I'm just wondering how important this actually is.

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    1. Sarah, think about it from a couple of different ways. Cooking can indicate an interest and skill in being 'nurturing', a quality that marriage minded men seek. It can also indicate how you take care of yourself, that is, do you eat healthy, prepare your own meals, or do you eat lean cuisine and take out. He may also be asking because he enjoys cooking and cooking together.

      Cooking skills are almost always a positive - yes, you will be more attractive. Of course, it is not a replacement for physical appearance, but a handful of developed domestic skills go a long way these days. Young men may not care much on the surface, but those skills do have traction and are differentiators - most young women have very few of them, and as those men get older, the well cooked meal and all else that it represents will go up in value in his eyes.

      I'd advise young men to learn similar things. Change the oil, tire, replace a light fixture, gardening, other minor home repair skills and handy work. Does that make him more attractive? On the margin yes.

      Keep in mind also that 'how important are these things' is rooted in what they mean to YOU. Do you enjoy cooking, providing a meal for yourself and/or your man, sharing time together in the kitchen? If so, then by all means develop those things. If not, be mindful of the potential for bait-and-switch, that is, if you HATE to cook, you are better off focusing on other areas as opposed to faking it and then eventually dropping it.

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  34. Sarah, cooking will be of lesser importance. Improving your looks is the biggest thing you can do (or keeping them up if they're maxed out) followed by having a kind, feminine, pleasant and non-bitchy personality.

    Being willing to cook for him as a nice gesture will mean more than the actual food quality unless the food was just awful (something you choose to do, not that you're obligated to--just wanted to clarify that in case anyone wants to try and create a straw man argument).

    I'm a man and I make good tasting food. Why not learn to cook a few good dishes? Can't hurt in being a 2nd or 3rd-order effect in making you more attractive.

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    1. "non-bitchy personality"

      Hey, HanSolo, could you expound on this a little? I have had two guys tell me the opposite. One I was dating, one simply a coworker friend.

      The coworker said my problem with guys is that I was too nice and not bitchy enough.

      The guy I dated said, He liked that I was nice but that my friend was correct, a bitchy personally is very alluring. Reading between the lines, he disliked the fact that I wasn't more of a bitch.

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    2. There's a difference between being nice, giving and fun and being a total boring doormat that is weak and needy around the guy. Some sassiness is good, meaning you coat your inner kind core with some teasing and flirting, some sultry seducation, and maybe the occasional funny sarcastic comment.

      That is very different from bitchy, which is nagging, complaining, entitled, stuck-up, putting him down, never being grateful and never doing anything nice for the guy. Trust me. 98% of guys do not want a bitchy woman as I have described the word. And those guys who do put up with a bitchy woman in marriage or LTR are doing so because she's hot or because they don't think they can do better.

      Finally, for a player, F-ing a bitchy woman might be seen as a fun challenge or a type of pump-and-dump payback.

      To any sane woman who wants a good relationship, don't be a bitch! I can't make it any clearer than that.

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    3. And 'seducation' means you educate him into the ways of seduction. Or not. Just kidding, meant to say 'seduction'.

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    4. Also don't mistake the fact that being really nice to a guy who is out of your league or just not interested means that you shouldn't be nice to a guy in your league when seeking a relationship. Being good looking enough as a woman is the most important thing for 80% of guys. Now, for an average guy that has a marriage value of 5.5/10 then he can't be too picky and the average looking girl will do it for him (eventually, once he realizes he can't get a 7 or 8). However, the problem of being unrealistic is more the domain of women where far too many 5's think they're 6 or 7's and only will accept a male 7 for an LTR. This is due to higher males flirting with lower females for sex and also due to the go-girl culture that tells all women they're fabulous and deserve it all.

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    5. I don't even think about whether someone is in or out of my league. Either I'm into the guy or I'm not. I think people should think along those lines more because dating is hard enough without adding the league stuff into it or needing approval from others. I'm so happy being single though that I have to be really into someone in order to date them and I'm worried about that happening again. You give good advice on here. Cheers. :)

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    6. Yes, in the end it is about two people really loving each other and being attracted so even if someone is out of your league but loves you and is devoted then it doesn't matter. However, those are the 5% exceptions and a woman shouldn't base her hopes on romance novels like Pride & Prejudice where Darcy is clearly out of Lizzie's league. (Not referring to you specifically, Lucy)

      Women do need to know that men will flirt and sleep down below the level of attractiveness that they would accept for marriage/LTR. It may be somewhat hard to exactly know who is in your league but I think most people can get a reasonable idea.

      If all the guys a girl likes either won't give her the time of day or will only sleep with her but not commit to her then she is going for guys that are out of her league and are just using her for sex.

      And thanks for appreciating my advice and comments. It's based on both reading a lot and also dating lots of girls and making a lot of mistakes myself and also doing some things right and hopefully having learned from them! ;) Cheers to you.

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  35. Sarah. Also, some more traditional men might put more importance on cooking than I do but even there the looks and nice personality will do you more good than cooking well.

    I personally don't think that cooking and cleaning are the domain of women. Historically, in agrarian society, it made sense for women to do that because the man was out in the fields more where his strength was of greater benefit. Today, who cleans or cooks is more of how you as a couple decide.

    About the only thing I really want is for my wife to be home with the kids when they're little although I'd be willing to stay with them part or full-time if for some reason she could earn way more money and wasn't going to look down on me for being the one staying with the babies/toddlers and not earning as much as her.

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    1. Thanks I was asking because I already have looks and a nice personality :)

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    2. Also, if a man is thinking of living with you, does it usually mean he is serious about you? Or that he just prefers to live with someone?

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    3. Well, it's more serious than not wanting to live with you since you'll spend a lot more time together and so it will be more difficult to have other women on the side if that is what he were intending. However, as with most things, you need to weigh the whole picture and see how he treats you, what he says his long-term intentions are and so on.

      If he is really wanting to live with you then I would suggest saying that you're only willing to do that if he is serious about you as a life or long-term partner (or at least, really considering the possibility), assuming that's what you want.

      Date 1 is probably not the time to talk about such things. Suggesting moving in with each other is definitely the time to talk about what both of your short and long-term intentions are.

      Is this just a hypothetical question or do you have someone thinking of living with you?

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    4. I like a man who is good with his hands when it comes to fixing stuff around the house or working on cars. I believe those are good skills for a man to have. Maybe that is how some men feel about a woman's inclination to cook. We all have a different scale and give different weight to the various characteristics. I doubt it would be a deal breaker though.

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  36. In traditional arrangement, women do domestic work and men earn money. I as a woman think that, if I just see the family of two as a union, then it does not need to be that strict regarding who should do which share as long as all work is done and both do their shares. So if in some cases, I mean if I make more money than my man if I had a family, I would not mind if for sometimes I make more money and he does more domestic work and vice versa. If I see the couple as a union, then the two should take care of each other in whichever way good for both. Even a very masculine man might have some bad days for his careers because everybody does. In examples like this, I don't see why a temporary switch of roles can hurt. But too many families are destructed because of frustrations like this, because even if the woman does not mind, the man might still feel intimidated in such situations. I think this can be avoided if people have better attitudes to such things.

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  37. Actually I have observed people who I know of, if the family make way too much money, then neither of them cooks or cleans. They hire cook and cleaners to do this for them instead....

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  38. Hey everyone, here is a link to some podcasts that have GREAT dating advice: http://www.theporchdallas.com/media/ They also specifically address the whole living together question.

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