Saturday, May 12, 2012

Men Don't Care About Your Accomplishments

A woman can brag endlessly about how much money she makes, the deals shes has closed, the celebrities she's rubbed elbows with, or the awards she's won: none of it matters to men. This might seem harsh, and it is perhaps slightly hyperbolic; after all, it is fairly interesting to know that a girl is successful at her job, or that she works with someone famous - and an award is always impressive. But none of these things translate into sexual or romantic attraction.

I am sure there are some women who grew up understanding otherwise. Or perhaps, having been dealt mediocre looks and a poor figure, others decided that they would pour their energy into their academic degrees or career rather than their beauty, and then proceeded (not without help) to dupe themselves into believing that men would like them for it. Unfortunately, this isn't the case, as many 30-something single career-women are currently realizing - the hard way.

I used to date a girl (older than me) who would always tell me about how she had just balanced some multi-million dollar budget, or how she was in the throes of closing an important project. And it was undeniably impressive that she reported directly to the CFO of the biggest hospital in the city. By all common standards she was successful. But every time she brought up work I got bored.

Women who try to attract men by being successful are like men who try to attract women by being sweet or gentle. While being sweet won't necessarily ruin a man's chances with women (in some cases it will), neither will it draw her in. Likewise, although a woman's business or academic success won't usually turn a man off (in some cases it will), neither will it attract him. Both of these misconceptions are examples of the sexes projecting their own desires onto the other. It is women, not men, who find career success attractive, because it demonstrates drive, focus, strength, initiative - masculine qualities. Likewise it is men, not women, who find gentleness attractive, because it is a symptom of openness, receptiveness, nuturing ability - feminine qualities. I got bored when the girl I was dating talked about work in the same way that women get turned off when a man starts smothering them with flowers and gifts, or constantly apologizes unnesessarily.

This isn't to say that women shouldn't earn PhDs, or become CEOs, or generally strive to achieve traditionally masculine goals. Whether or not women "should" do something is a separate question entirely from what will happen if they do. There are plenty of reasons that a woman might want to win an award or get a promotion; I am merely pointing out that she would be foolish to do so in an attempt to attract men.

215 comments:

  1. Accomplished women are so used to betas supplicating before their awesomeness that they don't know what to do when you throw them a curve ball. I was flirting with a very cute English professor the other day and in response to something she said I replied "Ah, it's so cute that you're all smart and stuff." I have NO IDEA where that came from. But apparently no one had ever said anything like that to her. The hook is set!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. wow you are disgusting

      Delete
    2. Southern Man - She was trying to say that you're an idiot. Not that you are -- she just believes you're one.

      Delete
    3. You are Southern so therefore clueless about how you patronize women. Its an idiot curse on y'all lol.

      Delete
  2. It's like women who say, "I don't care if you have nice abs/a cool car/ a motorcycle", yet every time I take my shirt off I get compliments, and I'm by no means shredded, just in shape. And my motorcycle, forget about it, works every time.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Really? In what situation in the world would you need to take off your shirt and then mention or show your motorcycle and car? This is so damn random and weird. I hope you are 18 years old, because if you are over 21 and making these statements, it is just sad.

      Of course, any girl who would be impressed by this sounds like a real winner! go get em tiger hahaa.

      Delete
  3. This must be true. Cause when it comes to compliments, we(females) never get told things like "you're so ambitious I love it" or something like that. It can be a compliment pertaining to anything else but it's never career related. P.S You were gone too long, missed your posts!!!

    ReplyDelete
  4. "Women who try to attract men by being successful are like men who try to attract women by being sweet or gentle. While being sweet won't necessarily ruin a man's chances with women (in some cases it will), neither will it draw her in."

    I think sweetness and being gentlemanly is a plus, but only if there is a masculine "core", so to speak. If a man is successful, confident, ambitious, attractive etc., his sweetness is only a plus as it makes him stand out as a man who has it all. If his personality and accomplishments are there, a woman will only be charmed by his sweetness (suffice to say he's not babytalk-ish). Sweetness mostly goes wrong when men don't have the other stuff in place and ignores their masculinity and thinks a woman falls for their approach, not them.

    It's true that women want a MAN but the more a man emphasizes not being sweet, romantic and gentle, the less real he is. If a man is truly confident, he's not constantly afraid of not being manly enough.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. thefemaleperspectiveMay 16, 2012 at 11:01 PM

      I couldn't have said it better myself. A man who is truly accomplished and has a sweet side to him is truly the perfect package to a woman. Why do you think women always fall for the lead man in romantic comedies. He's confident, sweet and charming at the same time. There needs to be a perfect balance. If a man is just focused on being successful, he is seen as too rigid, unromantic, and harsh, making the woman feel unappreciated that he will not give her the love and affection she craves.

      Delete
    2. While I agree to a certain extent with what you are saying, I think sweetness matters a lot less than you claim. Women are always saying it is so important, but their actions consistently prove otherwise.

      It isn't at all suprising to me that the example you chose is a fictional one. This should probably be a red flag for you. Romantic comedies are made to play into the supposed ideals of women, not the reality of relationships. If they did the latter, they woudln't sell. They then, in turn, help to create or perpetuate those ideals, and very few women (or men) stop to ask themselves whether or not they are a reflection of reality. Yes, Hugh Grant makes you woosie and increases your heart-rate; but how much of that is because he is a supplicating push-over who gives in to the courted woman's every wish, and how much of that is because of the romantic setting, the background music, and most importantly, the wish that you could have the best of both worlds - namely, a man who is strong enough that he isn't swayed by his emotions, but is also swayed so much by his emotions that he can't control himself around you.

      That turned into a bit of a rant... Again, I see what you are saying, but I think it only applies in very small degrees, such that the reality is closer to what I describe in the post than what you see in romantic comedies.

      Delete
    3. thefemaleperspectiveMay 21, 2012 at 11:24 AM

      It applies in very high degrees not small Andrew. If you were to ever have the opportunity to spy in on a conversation among women on the topic of our ideal man, 'kindness' would be very much high up on the list. I'm not saying a smothering kindness, but we want to be treated well. Susan Walsh's recent post 10 Reasons to Date a Beta Male on Hooking up Smart description sums what I mean well:

      "Women select long-term mates according to a long list of traits. Those include alpha traits like social dominance, physical prowess, and symmetry. They also include what might be called beta traits, including ability to provide, kindness, honesty, demonstration of love and affection, intelligence, compatibility, dependability and industriousness."

      Sure the alpha male is the first instinctive attractive man to women, but we very much realize later if we get into the relationship with this man it is a mistake and soon regret it. Women admit all the time that they always seem to fall for the asshole, because on a biological degree we want the asshole who is assertive and can provide for us. But once that honeymoon phase of the relationship is over, emotionally we want a man who can be kind and tender at times; an alpha with beta qualities. This is possibly why this ideal will only remain a fictional character in romcoms. How unfortunate.

      Great post by the way. Keep more like them coming!

      Delete
    4. I guess we just disagree about how important it is. But given your comments here, I'm curious what you think about the post I made today (The Female's Internal Conflict).

      Delete
    5. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    6. New reader here, and going thru your posts like fire.

      I had to add my two cents to the interesting dialogue down here. In my opinion, (1) sweetness is entirely different from but easily mistaken for kindness (by both sexes) and (2) kindness is just as important as the typical alpha masculine traits

      I mean, if there are certain qualities that attract men to certain women and another set that keeps them committed, then why should the process be any different for women?

      Delete
  5. "It's true that women want a MAN but the more a man emphasizes not being sweet, romantic and gentle, the less real he is. If a man is truly confident, he's not constantly afraid of not being manly enough."

    I agree that a man 'acting' overly macho is fake. But not all men are naturally sweet and romantic, so the absence of these does not necessarily mean he's not being real. The trick is to determine who is putting on an act, and who is being true to his masculine core and making no appology for it.
    My husband was not in the slightest romantic or sweet. But that was the real him, and he wasn't going to pretend to be otherwise. I loved that about him. It allowed me to skip all the 'is he just saying/doing that to get what he wants from me' and led me straight to 'do I like this man for who he IS?'.
    So it could be also said 'If a man is truly confident, he's not afraid of being manly.'

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I agree, though I would actually take your comment one step further and say that MOST men are not naturally sweet and romantic.

      Delete
    2. I believe most men start out as naturally sweet and romantic BEFORE they begin dating and having sex with multiple women. I think doing so desensitizes them and makes them cynical and jaded about women, love and relationships. Pornography is also a factor.

      I think 100 years ago men were more naturally sweet and romantic (but only revealing that side to their sweethearts) because both men and women were expected to reserve sex for marriage. Reading poetry and literature written by men back then shows a rather romanticized and idealized conception of the female sex.

      Delete
    3. Men definitely are naturally sweet and romantic, perhaps even more so than women. However, most men realize sooner or later that being sweet and romantic doesn't attract most women. In limited quantities, it may help you keep a woman. But before you can keep a woman, you have to get a woman. And what attracts women is not the sweet and romantic guy, but the confident/asshole guy.

      Delete
    4. @Anonymous on May 19th
      I can't help but wonder if you may have conflated some cause and effect. I can't speak for other generations, but for those that were born in the '80s: a lot of men I know from that generation started out not being very sweet (if I think back to my early childhood, I was rather bossy and insensitive), but became convinced that they were naturally sweet after years of influence from mass media that sold them the idea that women want a man who is "nice." Then after years of being dateless (note I said *date* less, not "dated a lot of women but couldn't get laid." We're talking about little to no romantic attention whatsoever) they become cynical and jaded, and then decided to pursue multiple sex partners rather than continue searching for "the one".

      I think there's a good chance that your experiences with these jaded men with multiple sex partners are after they've invested a lot of time and effort quashing their inner romantic because of encountering years of scorn for being "a nice guy." Have you spoken with these men about their experiences before having had multiple sex partners? I'd be willing to bet that a lot of them went through years of being ignored for being "too nice."

      Delete
    5. What you dont seem to get is being an asshole gets a GIRL. Being kind and decent gets a WOMAN. So if you simply want to get laid all the time (and of course eventually turn into 'that creep' in the club) then you act the asshole around very young girls who are inexperienced, insecure and dont know how to see through bullshit, plus are socialised to be 'sweet' meaning they are afraid to hurt your feelings by saying 'no' and will often give in to sex. Not all, obviously, but many (dont believe it, there was a very big discussion on Jezebel and many women spoke of 'giving in' through fear of being insulted and hurting his feelings, but only as girls).

      Once the girl becomes a woman, she values kindness more and understands that sex is actually better with the decent man who really cares that she has a good time. (There are American men posting details of their encounters, like teenage boys do, grown up men and they are so awful, the women never come back unless they are Latvian or similar, wonder why that is). The decent man then gets a woman to mate with and build a life with. This is why women talk so much about kindness. The asshole behaviour is ok for casual sex, because there is no chance of falling in love with the guy unless you are a damaged type of woman with low self-esteem, daddy issues, low class job like waitress, coat check girl…funny how those 'alphas' are always hitting on waitresses isnt it?

      So it all works out, perhaps. The 'alphas' go after the damaged girls, probably producing damaged children that cant be aborted due to the US' ridiculous abortion bans. (and no contraception soon! You can send kids to learn creationism at school! What a great nation!) The smart women get the decent men. What you so childishly term 'betas'. Only in the USA would being a decent, kind, loving and affectionate male be seen as weak and pitiful, when it is clear to the rest of the globe those are strengths and make for supportive fathers and strong children. Only the USA would insult a woman for going to Harvard. Only in the USA do men say out loud they need 'admiration' and then claim to be the strong ones! If yo need admiration, you are by definition insecure. And this whole website and all the rest are too depressing. Women of America, leave. Or marry your betas and make alpha a term of abuse.

      Beta guys, start being proud of it. Guess what: you're not a dick! You'll get to marry! You'll pass on your genes! When the alphas are having hair transplants and trying to roofie 19 year olds, you'll have a solid family and be surrounded by love!

      Delete
  6. I am a lawyer and I know so many women like this. What's even worse is they they tend to let themselves go because they get so busy with work and as a result don't work out enough and/or eat poorly. Women like this get into a cycle where they become more and more bitter because they cannot find anyone and they also tend to get insanely jealous/angry when they see one of their "hot" male peers get married to a secretary or some other women is far less accomplished.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The irony...

      Delete
    2. Yup. Kinda sad how society has mislead them so much. :\

      Delete
  7. I know you are right, Andrew. Great post.
    However, and I believe you have actually mentioned this somewhere in this post, a woman's achievements in some sort of career/job shows her willingness to work hard at something. The men who go after the lazy/unambitious women soon find out that they are not willing to work at ANYthing, not even the marriage.
    But I agree, the career in of itself is useless if it is waved in the face of a man, in the absence of beauty/femininity, etc, which men are actually looking for.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. If I may clarify - do you mean 'lazy' as in poor work ethic? I agree that a poor work ethic shows an unwillingness to put in even the expected effort required and this may very well overflow into relationships. But I think this is seperate from 'unambitious' in a career sense, as a marker for a lazy woman.

      Unambitious in a career doesn't mean she has no ambition at all. Her ambition may simply be focused in other area's. For eg: my career ambition began to slide after I met my husband. I was young, so my career had not taken off, I was still struggling with it but trying hard. After meeting my husband however I realised what I wanted more than my career was a life with him, so my ambition 'shifted', from career focused to marriage/relationship focused at the age of about 21. My career took a backseat, eventually into oblivion. He came first. So I was (and still am) considered 'unambitious' in the general career sense. But I'm not unambitious at all. I work hard at what matters to me - my marriage. I want it to last our lifetimes. (we've been together for over 17years now)

      Delete
    2. @ Anony1:

      I do mean 'lazy' as in poor work ethic. Ambition does not have to be based on her career achievements, no. Ambition to work hard at being a wife and mother is just as valid for a woman as ambition in a career.
      Your situation (and I do applaud it! Yours is the perfect balance) is not what I am describing in my comment. I think the fact that you actualy had an education and a subsequent beginning of a career is enough to tell a man you have intelligence and a certain drive. I agree with you that all that should be secondary to wife/motherhood. But for those who do not get married at a young age, the career is an ongoing necessity and a sign that she can succeed at something. It is howevere NOT something to wave about at men - Andrew is right in this regard.

      Delete
  8. This is a growing meme on the internet, especially among male writers. It makes me really curious how often women are dropping lines about their jobs and accomplishments. I'm a girl who went to an ivy league school, and I actually downplay it a lot because it sometimes gets a little awkward with guys who are interested in me but might not have had the same educational experience. I'm really curious, to the guys out there...how often does this really happen on dates?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Fairly often. While it isn't frequently outright bragging like the instance I mention in the post, the misconception is implied when women talk about their aspirations. Statements like this are very common on dates with American women in their early twenties: "I am going to complete my bachelor's degree, then try to get a Master's in business so that I can open my own company."

      Delete
    2. Yeah it's really standard chitchat. Maybe it's just something to talk about to break the ice, or maybe women really do think we care about that stuff. Unless you're a circus acrobat or something, it's super boring.

      Delete
    3. Guy here. A lot of the time I'll even ask about a girl's job/career, but just to:

      1.) fill space while I think of something interesting to talk about
      2.) let the girl talk about herself, which women love to do :)

      Delete
    4. I'm really surprised that average American men would feel threatened or bored by a woman merely talking about her aspirations.

      In East Asian, South Asian, Hispanic and West Indian cultures, it is a sign that she pertains to a higher social class (or aspires to) and is focused and driven. Granted, in these cultures it is a given that women prioritize their appearance and presentation (hence professional ambition and beauty are not considered mutually exclusive).

      Frankly many men that I know (usually MBTI "NT" Intuitive Thinkers & "NF" Intuitive Feelers) prefer intelligent and ambitious women. I grew up in an urban center in the Northeast with a high concentration of immigrants so that may explain the difference in viewpoints.

      Delete
    5. "I'm really surprised that average American men would feel threatened or bored by a woman merely talking about her aspirations."

      ---

      Not threatened, often bored. I mean think about it. How many of us are astronauts or national geographic photographers? Not many. Most people, including men, are tax attorneys or office workers or factory workers or pharmacists or whatever. Not exactly fuel for scintillating conversation. Men are bored by other men talking about it too. We sometimes talk about it with women because we know that our career is important to them. But for most men, it's pretty boring.

      Delete
    6. Andrew probably you can enlighten me as to what happened here; I was at a party, met this guy, we danced had a nice conversation...it was late so when I was leaving he offered to escort me to my car. We went out to my car and when he saw it he started to admire it (I drive a sports car), earlier he'd asked for my phone number so his accompanying me out to the car was also so I could write it down for him.

      Anyway, when he saw the car...then noticed that it was a standard, he commented in awe. at that point I wrote my number and gave it to him. While I was giving him the number, I noticed he took it somewhat reluctantly...he never called. I think back to the night, our conversation and everything seemed ok until we got to the car then he shut down, what happened Andrew?? Please email me your response. Thank you.

      Delete
  9. My only 'problem' with this is 1. That it seems like anything a woman says to you is said to impress or 'win you over', when in reality she's just sharing experiences with her best friend. And 2. That success in itself is masculine.
    I completely agree with the concept, but I think it would be better to use the word 'career' over 'accomplishments'. Because accomplishments can be anything, everybody travels in life or try out things they're interested in or tries to be good at. If you want a woman who never challenges herself on any level or a wife who stays at home / works part-time, then that is a particular preference. I'd be interested to see how many men agree though.
    What I'm saying is that you've made comments such as older women having 'miles more personality'. That often comes from traveling, getting confidence at work, making achievements. You can have a super sweet girl who's done none of that, but she won't have as much social confidence as the women who do. You can't have it all.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. In response to your points:

      1. I am talking mostly about women on dates, who usually are trying to impress the guy they are out with - in the same way that the guy is trying to impress them. This is normal. Very few people go on dates with no intention of impressing the other person.

      2. In a sense you are right: loosely defined, some female "accomplishments" can be attractive. It could be considered an accomplishment to make yourself attractve to a man! Though I would counter by pointing out that using the word "career" goes too far in the opposite direction; it is too limited. The accomplishments that men are not attracted by are more than just career or academic accomplishments: he isn't likely to be more attracted to you because you've climbed Everest, or are well-traveled either. I am not sure what a good "middle ground" word would be, but I think "accomplishments" gets pretty close.

      I have to disagree that confidence is directly linked to accomplishments, or only linked to accomplishments. Rather, I think confidence is linked to a woman's sense of self-worth. In recent decades, women have begun to derive their sense of self-worth from their accomplishments. So, as you say, accomplished women do gain real confidence (which is definitely attractive); but I think the underlying reason for that confidence is self-worth, not the accomplishments that cause that self-worth. You can't have it all, true, but you can have confidence without accomplishments, if self-worth is innate or gained in some other way (beauty, intelligence, stubborn refusal to admit faults, etc.).

      Delete
    2. Also, I wouldn't say that success is masculine, but I do think that accomplishments are masculine. This doesn't mean that women can't accomplish things, or shouldn't accomplish things; it just means that they are less inclined to accomplish things than men, because women have less "masculine energy." The drive to go out and achieve is a masculine.

      Likewise, the instinct to nurture and love is feminine. This doesn't mean that a man cannot love, but men are less inclined to it than a woman, because men have less "feminine energy" than women. The instinct to nurture is feminine.

      Delete
    3. I see what you mean regarding point 1 - I assumed you meant early dates. But when you mentioned a girl you used to date and how you "got bored" every time she mentioned work, I couldn't help but think this was a few dates down the line and she was simply making conversation.

      I think self-worth can be gained many ways, and some have really been raised in a way that gives them confidence, and have had parents who give a lot of positive feedback. Perhaps I am a special case here, but as I was one of the top students at school all through childhood, I often linked my confidence to academic achievements. When I got older, I began to slack of more. However, I've always received compliments on my looks, and I sort of 'fell back' on that. Problem is there are thousands of beautiful girls out there. And I would feel sad ending up feeling that's all (or at least most) of what I have to offer. Money and success might be masculine factors, but they are the most clear indicators of being good at what you're doing. That your partner and parents tell you you're intelligent once in a while, doesn't suffice in the long run.

      I don't think women have a natural drive to start their own business etc., I know this well as I'm typically feminine and I'm more of a 'homey' person. But if men still earned what they used to, if they were as generous as before and they were happy having a housewife to work 70 hour-weeks to provide for, it would be different. A lot of men DO expect women to work and are constantly afraid of being ripped off. Those of us who grew up with a good standard of living, need to do something to achieve that lifestyle later on. That often means a slightly more 'masculine' type of work, and to succeed in that type of work, you need to adopt a more masculine mindset. Of course I'll be more than happy to maintain my feminine self and work part-time in a gallery while my husband drags in the bucks if that happens :)

      Delete
    4. On the topic of female accomplishments, I teach in my spare time, and I've noticed that it's something men are always very impressed by (possibly even attracted to?) and I've actually had a few guys ask me out after mentioning that I teach children. I think a lot of it boils down to the whole nurturing thing, plus according to one of my guy friends, "a lot of guys have a bang your teacher fantasy," haha...

      Delete
    5. I am just surprised by this masculine vs feminine dichotomy you've drawn in terms of work, Andrew. As a professing Christian, I fall back on Proverbs 31, the description of an ideal wife. In it she is described as a hardworking investor and businesswoman among other things, which you deem masculine in nature. Therefore, I believe in God's eyes women are also equipped with the "masculine" responsibility of supporting their family via industriousness and commerce.

      From my own personal experience, I grew up among very feminine women (dressed to the 9s) who also displayed academic and professional prowess. For me there was never any cognitive dissonance in terms of gender roles. In Hispanic culture, women are physically affectionate and nurturing while still retaining a strong core sense of self and ambition, most importantly guarding one's sexual reputation.

      In countries like Colombia (where there is significant investment in higher education) women are expected to take advantage of educational opportunities to further contribute to the socioeconomic advancement of their nuclear and extended family.

      Andrew, I believe your viewpoint in this matter is short-sighted, but I do want to compliment you on your other rather incisive observations, especially posture. Even though the women in my Hispanic family are strong role models of femininity, I must have missed a gene because I tend to be more humble and accommodating. I think that reflects in my posture because today I did an experiment--

      As you suggested, I consciously stood up straight and walked with good posture all day long. You know what happened? I felt calmer and more elegant, and then I caught a glimpse of myself in the mirror - I looked sexier in a classy way. I was so preoccupied with standing up straight and keeping my head high that I felt restricted from being too solicitous and people-pleasing. I was still nice but felt quiet within and just alluring. In fact, a couple of men just started random conversations with me. Thanks!!!

      Delete
    6. hey andrew :)

      'It could be considered an accomplishment to make yourself attractve to a man!'
      I though this was a bit shallow. I mean, the more I read your blog, the more I come in conclusion that personality doesn't really matter for a man. actually, I think man could be perfectly happy in a relationship, even if they don't love their girlfriend. all they need is for her to be attractive. and the only personality traits they really need is submission.
      but if you really think about it, women don't really care about personality etheir. they care about status. and status doesn't really equal to a good or fun personality. this explain the bad boys.
      now, what do you have to say to this?
      (and I apologize for any gramatical errors in this coment)

      Delete
  10. When talking about career - do you separate between success in 'masculine' and 'feminine' fields?

    I suppose a man isn't particularly attracted by the fact that a woman is a partner in a law firm or a CEO. But let's say she's written a cookbook, has her own lingerie shop or is an accomplished ballerina - how do men feel about those? Are those 'masculine' trajectories simply because they involve doing something independently? Even if they are, I assume men view them differently than say, investment bankers?
    (I am not asking this to choose a profession accordingly - just curious).

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Interesting point... those things would be attractive insofar as they express her feminine nature; but the accomplishment of becoming the owner as opposed to, say, a sales assistant at a lingerie shop would not be singificantly more or less attractive.

      Delete
    2. I think it would ultimately come down to how the 'career' effects her lifestyle and priorites. Running any business automatically assigns her a level of stress and x amount of time required, regardless of the product. He knows the sales assistant at the lingerie shop will likely have a free mind when she clocks off. But the owner, not so. He doesn't want to add stress to his life, so he might avoid a woman who will 'possibly' bring stress with her.

      I speculate that a man is really looking for a woman who will put him higher on her priorites than whatever her career or job is. If he thinks she wont, she becomes less attractive to him. He may not find this out until he's been with her a while either. Sometimes this happens after marriage too - she starts a business or career to prove herself, and he and the kids have to take a backseat.

      Delete
    3. I see your point, but I do think you consider this more in theory than in practice. In my experience (which will often surpass what I read), women who stand out due to their 'accomplishments' in a feminine nature really have an advantage over women whom have regular jobs, or haven't achieved anything in particular.
      One example is women who have modeled over regular pretty girls. I know women who are attractive enough to be famous for their looks but aren't, and they obviously don't garner the same attention from men than the women who have been celebrated for their beauty (even if it is just a spread in a magazine and not actual celebrity).
      I see guys bragging about about their girlfriend who got an article in Elle showing off their wardrobe or were interviewed in House & Garden showing their feminine, well decorated apartment.
      Of course a man's personal opinion of the woman he's dating is the most important, but getting the public "stamp of approval" does show she is a desirable woman to pretty much everyone, and I do think you're underestimating the value of that.

      Delete
  11. Shit. So what should unattractive girls do then?

    ReplyDelete
  12. So...what advice would you give to an intelligent woman? I mean I would like to start a company, not to attract men, but because I want to start my own company. Is it only that these actions will do nothing to increase my attractiveness? As long as I'm pretty, will it change how much men are attracted to me?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The advice I'd give to an intelligent woman is to work on her personality and appearance. Intelligence doesn't make you less attractive to men. It actually makes you more attractive to men - but not as much as your looks and personality.

      Start your business (if that really is something you want to do for yourself and isn't a replacement for success in the dating world), but don't let that make you neglect the aspects of your life that will attract men as well (your looks and personality).

      Delete
    2. Thank you so much for your great advice.
      I wish to thank you for your contributions to society. Seeing as your such a relationship expert, are you dating a kind and lovely Victoria's secret model?
      Thank you so much again,
      Anon

      Delete
    3. I am interested in knowing what is your day job? Do you have a girlfriend? How did you come to know so much about women? What qualities does your ideal woman have?

      Delete
  13. I am both brilliant and beautiful, and I have a calm, classy personality. You better the hell believe brains make for sexy---when encased in the right package. And "simple" girls are a bore to men---eventually.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This is true, but men will pay more attention to the girl withOUT brains in the right package than the girl WITH brains in the wrong -package - everytime.

      Delete
    2. "And "simple" girls are a bore to men---eventually."

      but ugly girls are a bore to men---immediately.

      Delete
  14. Hahaha... I Love this blog! Although I disagree here- based on my experience & the men I've been with /dated so far- as long as I'm well presented and looking my best, being smart & well-accomplished in life (i.e good job, good education) is def an asset.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Glad you like the blog. Why do you say it's been an asset?

      Delete
  15. I agree with the main point - bragging or pursuing a high status career in order to attract men is a bad idea. But an education is often a minimum.
    Men may not care so much which field or whether it's an MBA or Phd, but ALL the attractive, successful men I know (those women want to be with) are married to women who went to college/university. I've heard guys say that they don't care so much what she does, but "obviously she has to have an education".
    I don't know if it's because their parents want them to marry educated girls or if it's because they're from a certain background, but the trend is clear. You're also more likely to have social circles which get along.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I am not saying this just to defend my point in the post, but I am pretty sure it is because of a shared background. Men from upper-middle class families (for example) hang out with women from upper-middle class families and usually end up marrying them because of that. When a man meets a woman from another class, she usually has a different set of morals, goals, expectations, etc. that are all cuturally-based, and therefore the relationship is less likely to work out.

      Delete
    2. So the background is 'enough' to connect with someone of a similar background?
      I'm from a typical 'upper middle class' background and I have always been told by my mother that if I want a guy from a similar background, I should pursue the same education, as they don't want "just another pretty girl". I study business management, and have zero motivation nor interest in it. If I could choose again, I would have gone with literature or arts. I've started taking fashion courses as well, so it's not like I'm doing nothing. This blog is very much the opposite of what parents have told me.
      I don't know if you care about background, but if you do, or have friends who do, does it matter to men if you've been flaky, or without direction when you're young? Isn't it true that some guys can be afraid girls are looking for a comfortable life if they don't aim to make a lot of money themselves but date guys who do?

      Delete
  16. I get the main point of the post: showing off because you're successful does not impress men.

    But on a side note, regarding women and their careers - I have a feeling the 'career woman' men tend to steer clear off is that woman in a blazer in a finance/law position with the briefcase.
    I used to work in PR and I can tell you that the most masculine, competitive women out there are often those in showbiz. Men tend to idolize certain actresses/models, but in order to get to the top they have often been rather reckless (a surprising number have also slept their way up). There is so much talent out there that an aspiring actress usually has to have much sharper elbows than the rest, not to mention to whatever it takes to be hired. I would say any prominent woman in showbiz has far more masculine qualities/morals than the average woman. But men don't seem to assume this when they look at actresses like Reese Witherspoon or Penelope Cruz.
    Don't you think there are certain stereotypes here? That most women can avoid being labeled as long as they are dressed in a feminine way and don't fit the exact 'finance' stereotype?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I see what you are saying and to an extent that is true - a woman can "take the edge off" her ambition by still appearing feminine. However, I think that she will still be less attractive to men than a woman who appears and behaves feminine.

      Delete
    2. Yes but that feminine woman still wouldn't get to the top because our society values certain traits over others. If being a leader and having ambition as well as the ability to reach to the top means turning men off, then so be it. I'm a second year student in medical school and I want to go into surgery even as I realize the fear that a woman in power would put into my male colleagues lol. If you have the potential to innovate, create and change the world into a better place, don't stop yourself because you're afraid no man will marry you. Such men aren't worth it anyways.

      Delete
    3. Femininity isn't defined based on how many men will want to marry you. Each of us has a talent. Some women have the talent to get men to marry them and them become nurturing mothers, which is wonderful. And some women have the talent to change the face of society and turn the world into a safer, happier and better place. They're both feminine and both wonderful. The second group of women may find tough luck in romantic life not because something is inherently lacking in them but perhaps because Average Joe just can't connect with them on a real level.
      I'm just trying to say that women shouldn't hide their accomplishments or lie about not being ambitious just to prevent themselves from scaring off men. Do you agree, Andrew?

      Delete
    4. I agree with the two Anonymous posters above. I've always felt more connected to men who are intrigued and appreciate accomplished women. Usually these men are very brainy themselves and need a strong mind connection for a lasting marriage.

      Delete
  17. I am just learning this with much astonishment-you're right women have been lead to believe, somewhere, that men placed a high value on their accomplishments. I guess if a guy IS looking for that, perhaps a woman might want to check why. In any case, for a large part of my life I kept myself away from dating because I didn't feel as successful as I wanted to be and didn't feel a quality man would be interested. Even at this late date it's wonderful to learn that my femininity, beauty and heart would be enough for such a man.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. you shouldn't think of it as just being "enough". most men would consider a feminine, beautiful, good-hearted woman as their dream girl.

      Delete
  18. A crude example but..... who would men pick between Hilary Clinton or that hot young chick who works in Starbucks?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Fuck Hilary.

      And then dump her.

      But assuming i didn't hate her, lets take for example... "trying to find acceptable female politician"...

      Nope, can't find one.

      Hot young chick at starbucks wins, every single time.

      Hell, if she is feminine enough, she might as well be unemployed and living with her parents.

      Actually, i wouldn't even want to fuck Hilary... yuck.

      Delete
    2. That is crude and mean! You should be ashamed of yourself!

      Delete
  19. While men can claim that they are not attracted to female accomplishment, they surely are attracted to the female confidence that these accomplishments bring with them. Less accomplish oftentimes translates to needy and no life, most educated men these days want to date their equals - meaning someone who has had similar experiences as themselves and can relate to their life. No self respecting man is going to date a doormat, unless he has serious issues, in which case he should not date period.

    ReplyDelete
  20. I know plenty of men, myself included, that are turned on by intelligent and ambitious career women (who-NEWSFLASH- aren't necessarily less physically attractive) . It's easy to be attracted to the stereotypical ditzy pre-school teacher if you have a weak ego like so many men do.

    And btw- I'm not sure why sharing accomplishments with a partner or potential partner is interpreted as just trying to be impressive. Do you get annoyed when a friend tells you about a new house they just bought? No, you're happy for them and are glad they're letting you know what's going on, right? Lighten up.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Here here, well said!

      Delete
    2. well yeah as long as they're physically attractive and non-bitchy, it's fine. but if they're not physically attractive, being a super successful broker won't make a difference.

      Delete
    3. "I know plenty of men, myself included, that are turned on by intelligent and ambitious career women (who-NEWSFLASH- aren't necessarily less physically attractive)"

      Look at what you typed. You're saying an intelligent and ambitious career woman CAN be physically attractive. Of course they can. And if they are, men will want to date them whether they're an engineer or a secretary. But if they're NOT physically attractive, then being an engineer won't make them more attractive.

      Delete
    4. No, but it does mean that given a base level of attraction, accomplishments matter-some men will pick the accomplished woman over the unaccomplished.

      Delete
  21. "Also, I wouldn't say that success is masculine, but I do think that accomplishments are masculine. This doesn't mean that women can't accomplish things, or shouldn't accomplish things; it just means that they are less inclined to accomplish things than men.."

    Those statements are really insulting to women. Most of the women I know have achieved many accomplishments in their lives, of all kinds. Not only achieving academic and career goals, but also by contributing to their communities in both big and small ways. And most of these women are happily married, and not to wimpy pushover men either.

    I'm quite shocked by some of the comments here. Are the men here feeling threatened by women's accomplishments??

    "In a sense you are right: loosely defined, some female "accomplishments" can be attractive. It could be considered an accomplishment to make yourself attractve to a man!"

    Well if making herself attractive to a man is the only "female" accomplishment that seems suitable in the eyes of men, no wonder there are so many women who unfortunately base their self-worth on their appearance, and consequently suffer the consequences.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thank you. As a 34 year old CEO with a PhD, I was beginning to lose faith in men! I am physically attractive and have your stereotypical Latina body (big hips, big breast, small waist). I don't NEED a man other than to be a companion, a lover, and a friend. It seems that most men are intimidated by that request and would rather spend tons of money chasing after the shallow bimbo. Quite frankly, I won't down play who I am... And men, don't say you are grazing or hunting and then expect for women to be waiting on the side lines for you. If you can't be exclusive, don't expect a good looking accomplished woman to be exclusively yours. Good luck to all of you.

      Delete
    2. "Are the men here feeling threatened by women's accomplishments??"

      Speaking as a man, yes.

      I don't want completion for power and leadership in my family life. Now, if i myself was extremely powerful and had extraordinary leadership skills, it would take the edge of the fear.

      Men wouldn't say they "fear" masculine power in a female, rather, that its a turn-of.

      In the PUA world, females who wield masculine power are thought to be high-testosterone, and therefore have greater hunger in bed, making them great casual flings, but not wife-material.

      The saying goes that men want tits, sandwich and quite. Masculine power in a female works against "quite".

      The gender reverse would be.... *thinking*

      Beauty in men. A real handsome man, much better looking than you. Wouldn't that make you feel uncomfortable?

      Nah, that's not it... *thinking*...

      A female with masculine power does not *need* the mans masculinity in the same way.

      A mans primary role in a committed relationship is to provide. That main purpose is diluted when the female is wielding masculine power.

      So, the gender reverse is a man who wields feminine power.

      Maybe that would be a gay man, who wants to marry a straight woman and have children.

      He would have opinions about how to decorate the home, what dress is acceptable on you, whether they male actors are hot or not... and sometimes his opinions would clash with yours, and you get in a conflict regarding what dress is acceptably fashiony...

      eh...



      Delete
  22. I feel like men find me more attractive for being accomplished in ways of interest to them. Like, they respect me and that does motivate desire. (I'm not inclined to brag- it's not like that. Please read on). Perhaps friendship is more a part of some people's relationships than others. (I do take care of my body's appearance, though). What I mean is, I've gotten really positive responses from intellectual guys after arguing with them (often winning, or at least contributing well) and I've gotten positive responses from guys I play sports with after I do well against them. I can feel, in the way changes in another's interest and emotion are visible through body language, etc. their change in emotion and it followed a demonstration, through the natural course of being myself, of being good at and into something they're good at and into. I looked the same before and after. Particularly the demonstration of smartness. I think some guys find it sexy. By implication, high grades are hot. I was smarter than my last boyfriend and I think he respected me. He was an engineer (me, too) and introverted, and maybe guys like that are more interested in intellectual equals? When I talked about a project I was working on once, he seemed kind of turned on after. Like the demonstration of expertise was sexy to him. Not shitting you. He was really supportive of me pursuing things in school. My number one supporter. So, I wonder at your words. I think sporty guys like sporty girls, not just for their bodies. Maybe it enhances friendship. That's the most plausible explanation. You can spend happier times with someone who is made happy by similar things to you. ... But maybe there's some attraction in being good at the sport, too (though, not better than the man...)?...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "I think some guys find it sexy."

      Sure, but will they commit?

      "maybe guys like that are more interested in intellectual equals"

      Intelligence is necessary to not get bored. The woman needs to be able to understand, appreciate and agree with my instructions.

      But if she is my intellectual superior, i would not be capable of leading. (i haven't find a woman who is my intellectual superior, yet).

      http://tinyurl.com/GoogleSearchPicGenderBellCurve

      Also, introverts and beta males have much lower expectations on women perceiving few options.

      So i want my woman to be intelligent, but not more than me. And the reverse is true, females get turned of by males who are less intelligent than themselves, unless the man has other masculine assets that offset the end result.


      Delete
    2. Oh, and regarding the males on the lower end of the bell curve

      http://tinyurl.com/GoogleSearchPicGenderBellCurve

      Aren't they in a disadvantage, being more stupid than most women?

      Answer, quote:

      The “single most underappreciated fact about gender,” he said, is the ratio of our male to female ancestors. While it’s true that about half of all the people who ever lived were men, the typical male was much more likely than the typical woman to die without reproducing. Citing recent DNA research, Dr. Baumeister explained that today’s human population is descended from twice as many women as men. Maybe 80 percent of women reproduced, whereas only 40 percent of men did.

      http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/20/is-there-anything-good-about-men-and-other-tricky-questions/

      Delete
    3. Wow! So well-written! Your comment really clarified the intent behind this post for me, even though I would argue that women increase their chances of meeting quality men by virtue of the physical proximity afforded by their pursuit of academic and professional goals.

      I do want to address what you said about women are not looking for gentle, peaceful and good-looking men. I emphatically have to disagree with you on that!

      I consider myself a stable, level-headed, sweet, feminine woman looking for just that - a sweet, gentle, kind and cute guy. I've never been attracted to the infamous "bad boy" because for me they just seem transparent and boring. Instead I'm fiercely attracted to quiet intellectual types who need a strong mind connection for a lasting marriage.

      Delete
  23. You are a sexist piece of shit. Those are not masculine qualities, they're HUMAN qualities, I would rather be successful in the field of my choice than be a dependent housewife any day. If a man doesn't care about my accomplishments he can fuck off, I have been hit on by a man who only cared that I was pretty, he did not complement me on my dancing skills even though he saw me on stage belly dancing (which is NOT EROTIC for your information) and for all he knew it was my FIRST PROFESIONAL SHOW. I never spoke to him again because despite being romantic he was dominating, I say treat me equally or piss off.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This isn't about inequality. The article just says that they don't consider accomplishments important to falling in love with a woman. A man would probably be impressed by a woman having ambition which of course leads to accomplishments but not the accomplishments on their own. Accomplishments don't warm you up on a cold night.

      Delete
    2. Very well put...accomplishments do NOT warm you up on a cold night. Accomplishments are a positive, but can sometimes come at a high price. Arrogance and ruthless ambition are not qualities that I seek in guy buddies...why on Earth would I want to come home to it every night?

      To the original poster: I admire that you don't wish to be a dependent housewife and am glad to hear that you don't put up with dominant s*** games from men. You are well on your way to being the equal partner you seek in a mate. One humble request though: read the OP's article again and look past the fact that he identifies some qualities as masculine and some as feminine. He is not passing judgement IMHO about these qualities, just stating the obvious that some women find more attractive in men than men do in women and visa versa. That is the real world most of us have to live in, fair or not, and life is too short not to recognize the facts in order to best deal with them.

      Delete
    3. "I would rather be successful in the field of my choice than be a dependent housewife any day."

      And you will.

      Delete
    4. holy crap... wow you seem... highly undateable.

      Delete
    5. Belly dancing most certainly is erotic. Maybe not to you, but to men it is.

      Delete
    6. Accomplishments may not warm you up on a cold day, but they will definitely put food on the table when a man dumps you or you run away from him cuz he beats you. Ask the women of Afghanistan what they would give to have a chance at education, jobs and masculine "power."

      I can clearly see how threatened some of the men here are by the fact that, for the first time in history, women can hold as much economical power as men. True, it may make your dick go limp and turn you off, but that's a fair exchange for a chance at equality and dignity that many women around the developing world still don't have.

      Delete
    7. To the anon above me:

      Try to understand this. Men are not women. We are not attracted to the same things women are, just as you are not attracted to the same things men are.

      Men (in general) are not threatened by your "economical power". Nor are we attracted to it. It's just neutral. It's like if you told us you really like Chinese food.

      No one is saying you shouldn't go get a good job or whatever. Go for it. Especially if you're single, you need to be able to support yourself. Everyone (including men, maybe especially men) understands that. We're just not excited by it. This blog is about ATTRACTING MEN AND RELATIONSHIPS WITH MEN. That's the angle that this article is coming from. And in THAT realm, your success is meaningless. Is that the only realm in life? Of course not.

      Try to think a little bit before getting all butthurt.

      Delete
    8. Thanks, Ethan, I agree. As a woman, I have to say that I was incredibly relieved when I read this post originally and spoke to one of my older male friends about it to get his opinion. He absolutely agreed. Coming to this realization has lifted a huge burden off of my shoulders. I have a B.S. in biology and work in academia, but I in no way make a bundle of money or am I in a high-powered position. For a long portion of my life I was always nervous about telling men what I did for a living, mostly because my roles were in administrative positions of some sort. Now that I understand that men aren't going to judge me for what I do, I feel like I can be more relaxed and authentic answering the question about my job. I can respond to the question with, "I'm an administrator at XYZ University," and smile, and they say, "Oh, that's great." Then the conversation promptly moves on to the next topic.

      I would like to offer my opinion on why women believe that their career and high salary/position should be important to men and important in defining who we are. To put it simply, it is because women are now socially engineered this way. All of our young lives we are pushed by our fathers, mothers, siblings, family, teachers, coaches, etc... to get good grades, be involved in athletics, strive for that scholarship, go to the best university, score that awesome job, don't take any gruff, and do it all yourself so you don't have to depend on anyone, let alone (scoff!!) a man! And a lot of us women buy it. Once we do all of those things and get the great job and the great salary and "independence," we look around and wonder why we aren't successful in relationships. Many of us weren't taught how to be anything but driven and successful. I know that many of my female friends as well as me were never sat down and encouraged to cultivate our feminine sides along with our ambitious sides.

      I had a tearful conversation with my older male friend talking about this very topic some months ago. I asked him why women are pushed so hard to achieve all of these goals when, in the long run, it makes us less desirable mates, which is a major challenge for many of us. He looked at me and said, "Paloma, we want that for our daughters and sisters and nieces, but we don't want that in a wife." I was so stunned at this revelation that I sat there in silence for a couple of minutes. It really started to make sense to me after that.

      My whole life, I was sold a bill of goods. There were so many people in my life who made me believe that the things that they felt were important for me to be a successful woman were going to ensure I had a full and balanced life. I worked hard to become the woman that I am, and I wouldn't change it, but I have started cultivating those softer traits that I wasn't taught as a child and young woman. All of that ambition being shoved down my throat had stripped me of my core femininity, and now I am learning about it on my own and developing it in myself.

      Andrew's blog and those who provide thoughtful comments have been a great help to me to start letting down my guard and allowing my vulnerable sensitive side to blossom. I'm sure there are many of those that will disagree with my point of view, but this has been a major epiphany for me. I have already began to see a change in my dating life, so thank you to all of you that have helped me along this path.

      Delete
    9. Hi Paloma,

      Men have been sold a bill of goods as well. Most of us were never taught that what we look for in a woman is NOT what women look for in a man. So I suppose in today's western society, we're all in the same boat to some degree.

      Anyway, you sound like a cool girl. I'm glad your dating life is turning around, and I'm sure you'll find happiness.

      Delete
  24. If the economy keeps going down the path that it is, men sure the heck will give a crap about a women's accomplishments and what she can bring to the survival table.

    But this is only true for a man that wants a helpmeet, not a person to bang.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Your point is well-taken, especially its sentiment about equal partnership. You may be right that in the future, men will care more about what women materially to the table, but only as an objective consideration, particularly for the more materialistic guys. The OP's point stands though: whether it's 2012 or 2112, women's accomplishments are not going to turn men on or warm our hearts...very few of us are wired that way and no amount of social engineering or economic necessity is going to change that.

      I actually think that economically-leaner times may actually force us to wake up to all of the material crap in our lives that we could never really afford and doesn't really make us happy. Unless we're truly poor, most of us are well beyond the survival table. Therefore, for most men of reasonable means, having an economic helpmate is neither here nor there though having a successful woman is certainly good insurance against her using us for financial security. What we really want in a "helpmate" is someone just to be a best friend: likes us for who we are, respects us as equals and knows how to respectfully disagree (i.e., doesn't nag us and treat us like children for simply seeing things differently) and has a stable and kind disposition. That will help us mentally and emotionally far more than any extra cash on the table. So, regardless, accomplishments are still a secondary or tertiary consideration.

      Delete
    2. yeah probably, but like anon above me says, only for totally practical purposes. he won't feel any more actual attraction for you. i think for most men, what we've wanted for millennia will still trump anything a temporary dive of the economy would provoke.

      Delete
  25. I am 45 and have known this to be true for years...it's refreshing to realize that I am not the only man who has noticed this to be a classic projection on the part of women...especially American women. I live in DC which is success-object central in the US...the place where "What do you do for a living?" is most likely the first thing people ask. To the say the least, I have dozens of bright, extremely successful and overly ambitious women friends who often have trouble holding on to boyfriends. Quite often, they will complain that there are no good men (actually MOST men are good men, just not what they want), only want one thing (sometimes true) and are "intimidated by successful women." Of course when they list their own desirable qualities, guess what is #1? You guessed it: their success and ambition.

    Because we're buddies, I have recently had the nerve to be more honest with them. I tell them exactly what you say here: Men are simply not attracted to success...to be blunt, it does not make our heart go pitter patter and it doesn't give us an erection, period. Do we admire success? Sure! Is it intimidating to men? Sometimes, but only if a woman uses it as a weapon or it makes the less successful man feel insufficient as a man which is a product of not only his insecurity but quite often, her boorish insensitivity. Do we see ambition as a positive in a woman? Of course, so long as it is tempered and means that she is is a contributor and has a pulse...no self-respecting man wants a bore or a user, but an equal partner. But, personally there are few qualities I find more off-putting in my fellow men than excessive success-orientation so why in the hell would I want it in the people I would want to spend my life with, namely women?

    It seems that some of the respondents would believe that the OP is advocating that women temper their goals, supplicate to the men in their lives, go back to the kitchen, and be the good little girl they are not....except that is not what he is saying...at all. Read it again: he is simply saying that women wanting men to be sexually and romantically attracted to them BECAUSE of their career success and ambition is pure delusion and classic projection. Because it's a quality that women so often seek in men, they sometimes lead themselves to believe that men seek the same in equal quantities in women. So often, rather than trying to understand it and come to terms with it, women like my friends are likely to be angered by the notion that men are not wowed by their successes which reinforces their frustration and feelings of moral superiority toward men which in turn only moves them further away from the gentle and peaceful qualities that men generally actually find attractive. BTW, men do it to...trying to be gentle, peaceful and good looking to attract women because that is what they are most turned on by in women, but ignoring the qualities of ambition, drive, real confidence that really turn women on in general.

    Take it from me, I am a good-looking but very short and none-too-naturally ambitious nice guy with little dating success over 20 years of frustration. Then recently, I got real, focused a bit more on the career, got over my bitterness about women overwhelmingly preferring tall men, and developed a backbone, particularly in dealing with women. The result? Now that I live in the real world and not the world as I wish it to be, I am having a lot more dating success and on terms I can better live than in the past. The OP's point is not give up your goals and career dreams but to get real about it being at best a neutral factor in most cases as an attractor of men. Sound advice ladies...leave it if you wish. Don't give up your ambition if it makes you happy and it can be a plus with men, but it is not fair and completely delusional of you to expect it to be a magnet for guys.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Ok so then why do most successful men in the public eye, date other women who are successful or well known as well? Politicians, like Bill Clinton, who dated and married Hillary Clinton who was very accomplished academically herself? If that didn't matter, why didn't he marry any dinglebat who was just hot? Or celebrities who usually date other celebrities than normal civilians? If success didn't matter at all, why don't they just date nobody's who are just as hot as the famous women they end up dating?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Most? You listed one.

      But in any case, I can tell you exactly what the reason is: they marry whom they meet in their social circles, which (unfortunately for them) revolve around the academic or business worlds in which they work and operate. It is a matter of proximity.

      Also, very ambitious men are not that concerned about their success with women. Their career is far more important to them, so they are fine marrying someone "good enough" or someone who will be a good companion in furthering their career - not necessarily someone that they have a deep emotional connection with.

      I'm going to ignore the fact that Bill Clinton's marriage is obviously a farce.

      Delete
    2. Well, I live in Hollywood, and the celebrities that I know that mingle with many different hot girls will usually go for the famous one. If you took two beautiful girls that were of the same level of attractiveness, they would go for the more famous and accomplished one, the one who had more status. Maybe as you say it has more to do with running in the same social circles...but essentially, being successful doesn't exactly hurt then if you're running in the same circles as very successful men because it gives you that exposure. Also men who are very ambitious are usually Alpha Males, and they care a lot about their success with women, and usually multiple women. Outside of politics, where having a good marriage is of the utmost importance, men who are CEO's, and other successful and ambitious types usually have lots of women, and father lots of children.

      Delete
    3. Power and success is a relative term. If there was one single person on earth, those words would be voided of meaning.

      So the question is not whether the women are more success than the average man, but if they are more successful than their husband.

      A related issue would be height.

      Delete
    4. "If you took two beautiful girls that were of the same level of attractiveness, they would go for the more famous and accomplished one,"

      Lol well sure I guess. Why not. If all the girls are beautiful, then as far as a guy is concerned, that's 80% of the battle right there. In that case, the woman's fame might add an extra few percentage points and push her over the top.

      But for the *average* girl, who by definition is not in the "super hot" category, she would help herself a lot more by working on her looks than working on her accomplishments.

      I'm only talking in terms of attracting men. Of course she should still follow her dreams and accomplish whatever she wants to accomplish. It's just not going to help her in the realm of attracting guys.

      Delete
  27. I've got a very traditionally-masculine life at the moment, and I enjoy many parts of it, such as my social circle and job prospects/money. I am in a male-dominated field and I'm going to be honest- achievement in work/academia will always be much more fulfilling to me than any relationship could be. I definitely care more about finding my dream job than my dream man.

    That being said, as I've grown older, I've had a greater desire for my feminine side to flourish. In fact, I think my lack of femininity is my greatest insecurity. ALL of my women friends have the same issue as me, and I'm convinced that my lack of femininity is the only thing preventing me (and my friends!) from obtaining a stable relationship.

    I read posts on feminine beauty. No major problems there. But how do I ACT feminine? Or at least make men feel relatively more masculine than me? Frankly, I'm clueless.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I should add as a side note, I'm only 21. I think age could potentially be important in addressing the situation.

      Delete
    2. Read the post about "femininity authenticity and compatibility"

      Delete
    3. There is a greater occurrence and acceptance of masculine women then feminine men.

      The masculine female needs to find a hyper-masculine male in order to feel comfortable. Else, her hypergamy will start to tingle.

      Delete
    4. Work/career is *highly* overrated. More men understand this than women, probably because men have worked for longer. Trying to find joy and meaning in work is a big mistake. Anyway, I'm 40 and I've seen all of my career-driven successful female friends come to this realization one after the other, no exceptions. They all eventually want to get married, have babies, and stay home. Frankly, I was shocked at first. Now I expect it.

      Delete
  28. Men may not care about accomplishments or degrees, but my experience tells me that men would love to be with a girl who is "someone", whether she is partly or fully famous as a model, actress whatever... These girls are more popular, and I don't see any other way of explaining it. Women who made something of themselves or is slightly famous are more popular than others, even if they are of similar attractiveness. I don't know why if status doesn't matter - maybe just so they can say "I went on a date with that actress from Gossip Girl". I don't see how these things are irrelevant?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Is it something about wanting to show off a woman to your friends? Is that what alpha status is in a woman? I have never had a guy who was proud that I was his girlfriend...they've always been embarrassed and cowered away from it. But there might definitely be something in the fact that perhaps the man a woman wants to date is the one who wants her more than she wants him? It's the only way the princess/knight fantasy can work.

      Delete
    2. Those girls are more popular because they are constantly paraded in front of the public via the media, not because of their "status." Men obsess over those women but when I stop to think about it, I regularly see women - sometimes daily - that are far more attractive than 95% of the models I see in music and TV.

      Delete
    3. "But there might definitely be something in the fact that perhaps the man a woman wants to date is the one who wants her more than she wants him? It's the only way the princess/knight fantasy can work."

      I agree. Women always want to be desired by a man they admire. And all men want to be admired by a woman than adore and desire. It's a perfect dynamic.

      But yes, men do want to be proud of the woman they date. This doesn't mean that they never date women they aren't proud of. They do, occasionally, for various reasons - sex being high on that list.

      Delete
    4. Men would be far more proud to have a hot non-famous girlfriend than a ugly famous one.

      Delete
  29. Yeah this is true. But can you explain something to me? I am highly intelligent woman, not a genius by any means. However I talk to men my age, very bright men. They tell me that intelligence is not a turn on for them. They say that as long as a woman is "reasonably intelligent" that is what they need. They just want someone who can string a sentence together basically and who doesn't spend all day in her pyjamas watching reality TV. This makes me think that I might be possibly too cerebral to attract men. I don't think I'm that intelligent but I think a lot and talk about intelligent topics and am well-read. I laugh but I'm not bubbly and I never dumb myself down for men.

    Some one rightly pointed out that part of what put men off was my desire to correct things they said that were inaccurate or participate in verbal sparring (I appreciate a good debate). I've reigned that in with good results but I want a man who actually likes my intelligence. Is this a matter of men liking different things? Does my intelligence make no difference at all? Or is it a matter of combining my intelligence with enough social leverage to not make it my main feature.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I am going to start a post on this topic right now. One is long overdue.

      Please be patient. It will be worth the wait.

      Delete
    2. Talking as a man, that sounded interesting.

      Mainly because i believe i would win over you most of times, and there is a bigger probability of you admiring my intellect if you yourself have the intellect to grasp mine.

      It routinely happens that intelligent women and i disagree on something, and after several hours of sparring, they figure out it was right all along.

      I like the feeling of power and success it brings to me, and i wouldn't have it if the women can't "play along".

      This dynamic works of course only when the woman is intelligent and the man is extraordinarily intelligent.

      But don't fear, for each intelligent girl, there is one much more intelligent guy... and one really stupid one.

      http://tinyurl.com/GoogleSearchPicGenderBellCurve

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Ung-yong

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qFRjDpSt-o

      Delete
    3. Well, I have had guys that like me for being smart, and guys that choose the more feminine woman, in spite of her being far more stupid and less attractive. It's about what each man wants and/or values. I used to be really upset about this, but now I understand. You have to accept that the man who will like your for your intelligence or rather your blatant bragging of that intelligence may never come. It's all up to you, do major work on yourself if you want a relationship or stay as you are and accept the posibility of being single as a direct consequence of your options. Neither is good or bad

      Delete
  30. couple things about this post..

    -I have dated men who have a very high market value. Meaning they are well educated, goal oriented, and are on their way to becoming wealthy individuals. Each exhibit strong alpha qualities. Well what sticks out in my mind is how each one of them places much emphasis on a woman's accomplishments and what she has going for her. One of these men counsels his younger sisters to achieve as much as they can because and he tells them the more accomplished they are the better the mate they'll attract. Maybe that's a bit of an extreme example, but none of these men are dating an aimless woman without drive or a career of her own. However if it's just a matter of sex, many of these men of course will date a girl if she's hot regardless of her career background or lackthereof.

    -The points made above are also variable depending on region and culture. For example I live in Southern California. In Los Angeles you can find more high value men who don't mind entering relationships with aspiring actresses/models, or even cocktail waitresses. In Silicon Valley and the bay area however, there is a greater number of successful, well-educated individuals looking for more likeminded people, and suddenly career and education are given a higher priority.

    -while this blog entry can certainly motivate a girl to shift her priority from education and career to looks and personality cuz well..men don't care about accomplishments right?..in my opinion this is a shaky route to take. So if career and accomplishments take a backseat to looks and personality, what happens when you wake up one day and your husband has a change of heart and suddenly looks elsewhere? Humans are fickle creatures after all. If that day in fact comes, your looks and personality as well as lack of job skills aren't going to keep the electricity on and the bills paid. I know of several women who got stuck in this position.

    It sounds like the previous women you dated weren't well-rounded individuals and were not empathic to what you would find interesting in topics of conversation. But ambition is sexy regardless of your gender.

    I also wanted to comment on another point you've made in a previous entry. While alpha male qualities are highly magnetic and appeal to a woman's sexual nature, there should be some sort of balance between alpha and beta in order to actually sustain a loving and committed relationship. This is coming from a woman who has dated extreme alpha males in the past and while their qualities were great for their paycheck and got me going in the bedroom, I found them so out of touch with a woman's needs that a give and take, healthy relationship was just out of the question.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thank you so, so, so much for writing this. I can't describe how much you've made my day and assuaged my fears of being an unmarried spinster with cats simply because I enjoy academic research, get good grades, and will be attending medical school in fall 2015.

      When I examine the NYT Wedding Section, I always see highly accomplished men marry highly accomplished women. Even if those men could have dated bimbo, cocktail waitresses throughout their college years, they invariably end up with someone from their social class who accomplished just as much as they did. Hope is not lost for someone who won the genetic and parent lottery and who did well on her MCAT.

      Thank you again. I can't wait until I move to SF.

      Delete
  31. How important is it to guys that you have a job? And what kind of job you have? I would really like to read a post about this. I feel like this is very important to guys when they ate looking for a wife. Maybe looks come first but if an educated successful man is choosing between a good looking girl with a good job and a good looking girl who doesn't have her financial shit together he will chose the one with a job.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Speaking for myself, I could not care less what kind of job a woman has. It is so far down the list as to be irrelevant. I do care that a woman is *willing* to work and help out with the finances if necessary. I also care that she is financially responsible. But those are different issues than if she has a job or what kind of job she has.

      Delete
    2. IMHO men do place some importance on the job a woman has.Some will want a woman with a lesser job than their own so they are financially dominant as a provider.Some will want a woman with a job on an equal level to their own as this feels more socially acceptable and they do not want a gold digger.

      But overall men place more importance on physical attraction and personality, no man is going to marry a woman on the basis of her job or career.

      Delete
    3. Sienna, good point.

      -- Anonymous February 8, 2013 at 8:42 AM

      Just semantics, but the word "dominant" used in the context you did doesn't strike me as quite correct. It makes me think of "control", which is not what most men want. We do want to provide for and feel needed by the woman. It makes us feel worthy.

      Delete
  32. So to take this one step further - would you respect a woman's life choices even if they are very different from your own?
    I am in college studying business. I'm not very interested in it (got pressured by my parents to choose something academic so it was either this or law or medicine..)
    I recently got into a charity/foundation and I want to take a semester off doing that, as well as taking part-time courses.
    The guys I've dated have all been pretty ambitious - they finish their degrees on time and give 100% at work. If I'll end up graduating a year after some girls my age or taking time off, how would it reflect on me? Although men don't look for ambition in women, I am afraid to look like I'm not a serious person. If a woman in her early twenties have trouble finding out what to do with her life, how would you interpret it?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. i would interpret it as human. hell, most ppl in their 40's still don't truly know wtf they are doing, even if it seems like they do.

      Delete
  33. Wow maybe I've been out of the loop but I just found out that a legendary musician that my girlfriend was involved with, is now dating a famous female singer. My girlfriend is pretty hot herself, the only difference between her and the singer is...their accomplishments. I see this time and time again, so I think this post is moot. Maybe this doesn't matter to some men, but it does matter to high status Alpha men. Correct me if you think I'm wrong, if you can.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. you are wrong. i'm pretty sure that "accomplishments" is not the *only* difference. i mean after all, they are two totally separate individuals. i assume that in addition to hotness, there are also myriad differences in personality. not to mention that as a legendary musician, he probably likes - and can indulge in - variety. there are exceptions to every rule, but odds are that her accomplishments are not what make her appealing.

      Delete
    2. if the singer was ugly, your example would be more convincing.

      Delete
    3. This musician only seriously dates other famous women, famous actresses usually, and now a famous singer. These are the women he goes public with in the media. So obviously this matters.

      Delete
    4. I also know an actor who once told me that he only dates rich, gorgeous, and famous women. These are guys that can. So that's what they seem to prefer. Obviously these kinds of people who can do think this way. It seems to actually matter. If you could, do you think there would be no difference in who you are drawn to?

      Delete
    5. I think it's more about social status than accomplishments. People like to date in their own realm of social status. That's why you don't see wall street guys taking trailer trash to dinner parties, no matter how smoking hot they are.

      Delete
    6. Let's put it this way. Assuming both have good personalities, most men would rather date a beautiful sexy waitress than an ugly physics professor. If the physics professor is also beautiful and sexy, then sure, why not? I'd give it a go with her too.

      The key here is PRIORITIES. Most men prioritize physical beauty and a nice personality over accomplishments.

      I'll bet that in the above examples of "famous actors and musicians" dating accomplished women, these women are NOT ugly. Tell me I'm wrong.

      Delete
  34. This is a weird example, but what if you're in grad school studying Human Sexuality and Gender? Do you automatically look like a slut for spending your life studying sex, or is it attractive?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. it is neither. could be fuel for some interesting conversations though.

      Delete
  35. Okay, here's a possible exception: I'm an attractive female motion picture director in Hollywood.

    Men swarm me all the time and it has nothing to do with my body or looks - it has everything to do with what they think I can do for them. Sure, my looks are the first thing to get their attention - but once they ask me what I do (and it is ALWAYS men who ask), men want to marry me. From cabbies in NYC to valets in LA to waiters, cops, firemen, Home Depot cashiers to dog walkers to construction engineers - and especially models and actors - the booty and breasts get their attention and "I'm a movie director" closes escrow. They're hooked. And they chase me the way women are stereotyped as chasers of men. I of course cannot stand a needy, chasing man, so I've turned down more marriage offers than I can count.

    Men ARE impressed by what you do if you make movies.

    I think motion picture director, Victoria's Secret model and porn star are the three exceptions to the rule.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I am a journalist and I get similar intrigue from guys over my career. I don't think it's so much about being impressed by my accomplishments, but the idea that being with me could benefit them and improve their social status.

      I actually think being a journalist is perfect from the attracting guys stand point. It sounds important, gives you high social status, but doesn't pay so much as to make the guy feel unnecessary :P

      I have to disagree that porn stars would fall in to this same category.. who wants to marry a porn star?! Don't like 80 percent of them have genital herpes?

      Delete
  36. I think it is sad that women and men have to play games with each other. Why can't they just be themselves. But they can't. Relationships aren't real, they are just ugly games where some win and some lose. The winners are often phoney, bad people and the losers are often just being themselves and not good at playing. what a wonderful world. i also don't agree that men won't like you for your accomplishments but for their feminine qualities. it's not feminine qualities men like, it's tits and ass and youth. oh, is that what you meant by "feminine" you sexist ass.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I actually think you sound sexist because your opinion is that men only like women for their 'tits and ass' which is demeaning to both women and men. First, it implies that men only care about physical traits which is not true. Secondly, it assumes that all a woman has to work with is her body which is pretty objectifying.

      Delete
  37. This is crazy. Why do women who have a brain have to be unattractive? So beautiful people are less educated. I am educated and I don't throw it around but I do love my work. Of course talking about yourself (that is not relatable to the other person) is boring. They don't care of course. Which is understandable. I feel that a man who has a problem with a woman who is intelligent has a problem with himself. Attractive women have great jobs and degrees too. Femininity, beauty, and intelligence can go together.

    ReplyDelete
  38. My take on this is: I'd like a bit of a comfortable life. What I want is to spend USD 500 on clothes every month, I want to have a nice hair cut + color, a manicure, and go out for dinner. I want fresh flowers on the table every once in a while. A nice holiday every now and then somewhere sunny with water. I don't want big debts, I don't want to budget for every single item that I need. I want to drive a rickety car that takes me from A to B and I don't care what it looks like. Sure, I can doll myself up and go out there an try to atract a man to pay for what I want. But I have found out that getting a degree and a decent job is a much (much) surer way to getting what I want. Let it be known that I am 42, have dated many men and I have never EVER met a man who was willing to pay for the above-mentioned 'wants' of mine. Never. But my degree and subsequent job paid for all of it, no problem. So all you guys out there who don't want to hear that my brain is at least up to par with yours: let me tell you, if I would NOT have used my brain for getting a degree, I would now (at 42) still be looking for a guy to pay my way, and you'd all be running for the hills or doling our alimony. So be as unimpressed with my achievements as you like, it's irrelevant to me, to be frank. My achievements are still here and 'valid' while all the hi-po guys that I dated (and that could have paid the bills but never showed any interest in doing so) have faded away. And, oh yes, because of my achievements I could afford to marry an underpaid but very handsome and fun fireman, and still pay for my 'wants'. I never talk about work at home. But my hair + nails always look great and I never ever have to bug my man to pay for it. Hey, does that mean that degrees are a girl's best friend? ;-)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ok this has been stated repeatedly all over this blog, but maybe you haven't looked around.

      Andrew is not saying you shouldn't go and get an education and a job if you want to. He is ONLY saying that men are not attracted to career-type accomplishments (as opposed to women, who ARE attracted to that in men).

      You stated that it's irrelevant to you whether or not your man is impressed by your career. Well then grats you understand Andrew's point already. He wrote the article because unlike you, many many women DO try to impress men with their careers in order to appear more attractive. Andrew is saying don't bother. You also seem to be saying that you take the time to look good for your man, and also don't talk about your job at home. Well grats again. You understand.

      Again, Andrew did not say "don't accomplish stuff" or "don't get a job". And no one is saying your accomplishments aren't "valid". But you do realize this blog is about dating right? And the advice is focused on attracting men and having relationships with men, right? So we're looking at female accomplishments in that light.

      It's stunning how many of you women fail to understand such a simple point.

      Delete
  39. Wow this is one of the most pathetic posts I've ever read. I feel sorry for all the women who had to end up on dates with your sexist ass. Maybe they were talking about their careers because that's what interests them not because they're trying to win you over. It's not all about you, ass clown.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yah, I know a guy just like the author of this blog. He nitpicks women in stupid ways like this hoping to gain a power advantage and then wonders why he does so horribly with women. Guys, if you want to end up alone and bitter then take this blogger's advice.

      Delete
    2. you retard, he's not talking about WHY a woman talks about her career. he's simply stating that men don't find it attractive. the two are not the same.

      Delete
    3. "this blogger" is not giving advice to guys. his advice is for women.

      Delete
  40. If you want a guy who's worth having you should talk up your career successes as much as possible. Scaring off the insecure, sexist guys early on will save you a lot of hassle in the long run.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. you won't scare anyone off. you'll just bore them.

      that's like a guy saying if you want a girl worth having then you should talk about sports as much as possible. it's possible a few girls might like it. but most will just be bored. not scared, just bored.

      Delete
  41. In this day and age there is millions of post wall women, desperately trying to find a man now that their value has dropped through the floor, despite all the time they spent investing in their careers that no man give a hoot about.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Dude, you need to work on your grammar.

      Delete
  42. Let me be even more analytical and apply empirical methods to this issue. Reference is to empirical studies from this research paper: Cognitive processes underlying human mate choice: The relationship between self-perception and mate preference in Western society

    Quote at the end of the abstract: "We conclude that, in Western society, humans use neither an “opposites-attract” nor a “reproductive-potentials-attract” decision rule in their choice of long-term partners but rather a “likes-attract” rule based on a preference for partners who are similar to themselves across a number of characteristics."

    Which means that, accomplished men would desire accomplished women. Pretty women would desire pretty men, etc. etc.

    ReplyDelete
  43. This research paper is about a study to empirically test two hypothesis, known as "potentials attract" and "likes attract". The formar in plain languages means for rich men to partner with pretty women, while the latter means for rich men to seek rich men and for pretty women to seek pretty men etc.

    Result is the latter hypothesis "likes attract" turns out to true, which is also known as "assortative mating". (I am engineering major, so I am a layman to social science too, it's only my reading by hobbies.)

    I know I am wildly attracted to intelligence in men. I think intelligence is super sexy to me. And intelligent men often are well accomplished too.

    So according to the paper, I would need to be intelligent too in order for them to find me attractive too? (While of course I do not give up my efforts in improving my appearances and feminitiy too.)

    Any thoughts?

    ReplyDelete
  44. Soooo.....if women want men to like us, we shouldn't accomplish stuff? Are men really THAT terrified of women? I'm so tired of being told I should be more worthless, then I will be sexy. It almost sounds like I have a better chance of being attractive by having a super degrading job at Walmart than like...following my dreams n shit....because men won't care and may even be turned off by me following my dreams. This is kinda fucked up.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Guy here. I don't think anyone's really saying that. I admire and respect both men and women who are accomplished and/or highly educated. But respect and attraction are two different things. I'm impressed by accomplishment but it's neither attractive nor unattractive. I'm not too fond of the number ratings but to be realistic about it I'd date a waitress who's a 9 over a lawyer who's a 7. If they were both 9s then I'd date the lawyer. As Andrew I think mentioned above, being accomplished will set you apart from a woman of the same physical attraction and personality but it wont give you any advantage over a woman who is prettier and nicer than you even if she's less educated and has a "lesser" job.

      Delete
    2. Men do want you to have accomplishments. We just don't care what they are.

      Delete
    3. you accomplish stuff for yourself, right? not in order to attract men. so why would you stop? go ahead and accomplish all you want. if we're talking about ATTRACTION though, your accomplishments aren't going to help. men in general simply don't care either way. it's probably not going to hurt you, but it's not going to help either.

      this works differently for men attracting women. women in general DO find accomplishments attractive as they are an indicator of a man's ambition, capability, dominance, etc. (things men don't give a hoot about in a woman).

      i would date a hot waitress over an ugly lawyer any day of the week (assuming both are nice, good-hearted people).

      Delete
    4. YOU are the one equating worthlessness and sexiness. YOU are the one equating accomplishments with worth.

      do you think a waitress is worth less than a lawyer? i don't.

      Delete
    5. But most WOMEN would think a male waiter is worth less than a male lawyer.

      Delete
    6. "But most WOMEN would think a male waiter is worth less than a male lawyer."

      Absolutely. Which is why they think men think that way as well. We don't.

      Delete
  45. Doesn't it depend on how much the man values an intellectual connection? Some men place a higher value on that than others. They might still not care too much a woman's accomplishments but still want an intelligent woman.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. accomplishments does not equal intelligence. you don't have to be intelligent to accomplish things, and just because you accomplish things doesn't mean you're intelligent.

      sure i like a woman with a curious mind, an open mind, someone who enjoys learning and having new experiences. that's not the same as intelligence and it's definitely not the same as accomplishments.

      Delete
  46. The title of this post is "Men Don't Care About Your Accomplishments".

    The title is not "Don't Accomplish Stuff".

    Not hard to understand.

    ReplyDelete
  47. This site has a lot of valuable info for you women. Read it and absorb it and take what you will from it. But don't overthink it.

    I can sum up everything you need to know as far as being attractive to most men.

    1.) Be as physically hot as you can. Be slim, use makeup, dress nice, etc.

    2.) Be nice. Be a kind person. Be happy.

    3.) Don't be a bitch.

    Everything else is just you projecting what you like in men, thinking that's what men like in women.

    ReplyDelete
  48. This is a despicable article. Thank goodness it isn't true. Certainly amongst my highly educated group of friends and acquaintances, it isn't anyway. Many of my best friends are men, and from what I know of them they wouldn't consider dating a woman who couldn't match their intelligence and have a serious intellectual conversation with them. Needless to say, because they'd be bored out of their minds. My last boyfriend admired me far more for my intelligence, my intellectual interest and drive, than any other quality I had. I do feel sorry for you-must be very boring dating women purely for their looks. The great joy of a relationship is being with someone who challenges you, who meets your intelligence and drive and who is in every way your equal.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. (Full disclosure: I wrote the anon comment above yours.)

      I'm an intelligent and well-educated guy. I've got two graduate degrees and an undergrad degree from good universities. I've been published in scientific journals. I'm well-traveled and bi-lingual. My friends and acquaintances are similarly educated and intelligent. They are mostly physicians, IT folks, architects, corporate types, artists, etc. Yadda yadda yadda.

      You are incorrect about your male friends. The article IS true.

      Now let me start by saying that no guy dates women ONLY for their looks, though we will have sex with them based solely on looks. If a guy is DATING a girl -- as in seeing a lot of each other for months or years, beyond just having sex -- then he has to like her. Intelligence can certainly be one reason to like a girl, but it's almost never the top reason.

      The top reason is LOOKS. This is what draws the guy in. This is what makes his mind and body feel all gaga. The girl doesn't have to be a playboy model. For most men, that's unattainable. He only needs to feel sufficiently attracted to her by HIS standards, based on what HE can get.

      After looks come personality. Simply put, she has to be nice. She has to have a kind heart. It helps if she's a happy person. A bitchy personality turns guys off. Non-crazy is good. No weird baggage is good.

      Finally, there's all the rest. The icing on the cake. Intelligence, common interests, perhaps a nice job that can help pay the bills if necessary, a cool family, good with kids, and so forth. No one can deny that these factors play a role. However, they do not play as central of a role as you think.

      I actually don't blame you for your misconception. Frankly, I'm sure most of my female friends think the same way. It's usually the most educated girls that are the least in touch with primal male nature. It's hardly something that a guy is going to admit to in real life, especially a highly educated guy. I'm telling you the unvarnished truth here on the internet, but if I were actually talking to my female friends, I'd play up the whole intelligence thing and play down the looks thing. But when men look at each other's wives and girlfriends, we're not thinking "Damn, Kevin's wife is intelligent. Lucky bastard".

      No, not ALL men are like this. There certainly exists a tiny minority that truly would rather date an ugly professor than a beautiful secretary. You have either miraculously and coincidentally found all these guys and made friends with them... or your assumption is incorrect.

      Delete
    2. I agree with you looks are important-I would say the same as a woman. I couldn't date a guy (or girl for that matter, I'm bisexual), if I wasn't attracted to them. But the next thing after that is personality-and the key factor in personality amongst the people I know is the ability to hold down an intelligent conversation. Being nice certainly wouldn't make up for lack of intelligence. Both would be great. Thing is, no one dates someone on one factor alone. But I certainly do know men who wouldn't date someone beautiful but stupid-sleep with them yeah, but that's a very different thing.

      Delete
    3. Allow me to rephrase.

      First is looks.

      Second is HEART. I called it "personality" before, but what I mean is kindness, outlook on life, femininity, how happy she is, what kind of emotional baggage she's carrying around, etc. Intelligence is not heart. It's MIND. And being nice most definitely does make up for lack of intelligence. I mean if I had to choose between a nice girl of average intelligence and a super smart bitchy girl, I'd choose the nice one in a heartbeat.

      Last is all the rest: Intelligence, common interests, perhaps a nice job that can help pay the bills if necessary, a cool family, good with kids, and so forth.

      Delete
    4. Fair enough, it may do for you. I personally doubt it would amongst the men I know. Why settle? I wouldn't date someone unless I found them attractive, they were intelligent/accomplished and nice-it's not an either/or question, or at least, it shouldn't be. Maybe that's too picky-but personally I haven't found it difficult to find all three, and I wouldn't settle for anything less. The weight of evidence would suggest the men I know wouldn't either.

      Delete
    5. Also, you assuming you can speak for all men is absurd. You can no more do that than I can speak for all women, or even the majority. Personally I hate muscly men and I'm not bothered if a guy is a lot taller than me-I'm aware many other women feel differently. Similarly I would hate for the man I'm with to be significantly more intelligent or accomplished than I am-some women feel differently. There simply isn't a universal male or female mindset.

      Delete
    6. "Why settle?"

      -- It's not settling. That's like saying if you marry a guy handsome, smart, rich, successful guy who has brown hair when you prefer black hair, it's settling.

      "I wouldn't date someone unless I found them attractive, they were intelligent/accomplished and nice"

      -- You're a woman.

      "Maybe that's too picky-but personally I haven't found it difficult to find all three"

      -- It's pretty difficult.

      "Also, you assuming you can speak for all men is absurd."

      -- I claim to speak for most, not all. I can certainly speak for more men than you can.

      "Personally I hate muscly men and I'm not bothered if a guy is a lot taller than me-I'm aware many other women feel differently."

      -- I believe that most women would agree with you. Height is one of the first things women look for. And it's men who think huge muscles matter, not women. Most women prefer fit and trim, not bulbous.

      "There simply isn't a universal male or female mindset."

      -- There are no *universal* mindsets, but there are definitely general differences. Why are you so against the idea that men prioritize intelligence/success lower in women than women do in men? Should a waitress or secretary be less deserving of a good man than a college professor? Should people not be judged by the content of their character rather than their job status or vocabulary?

      Delete
    7. "Should people not be judged by the content of their character rather than their job status or vocabulary?"

      Yes they should, James. But that is not what you are saying. You are saying they should be judged by their looks, which is no better nor worse than being judged by their job/vocabulary.

      It's astounding to me how many men complain about money hungry, shallow women, while they chase beauty. Both are equally as shallow. And the last sentiment was not directed at you, just in general. It is mind-blowing that they cannot see their own hypocrisy.

      "Should a waitress or secretary be less deserving of a good man than a college professor?"

      Don't forget to add hot to both of those professions. You tried to switch it up at the end to seem like you are arguing for morality and kindness. When what you actually mean is IF the waitress is beautiful only THEN will you ever care enough to see if she has a good heart, which is no more noble than only wanting a partner with a great job. Let's keep it real.

      I realize this is how nearly all men think. And I am glad to know this. That doesn't make it any less depressing since I am a kind, attractive woman who doesn't judge a man by his income, etc. Unless, by some miracle, I can find a man who also cares more about the content of a person's heart rather than the shape of their ass, I will choose to be single.

      Delete
  49. Voicing my support for this article. I've seen a few feminist articles on the internet lately, from what appears to be women in their declining years of physical attractiveness (late 40+ years), that express a sentiment "I've accomplished so much, but all these guys don't seem to care, they chase after these young 'bimbos,' there is something wrong with men!" No, this is not an indication that something is wrong with these men. You were just unfortunately misled to believe that your career accomplishments would drive a man's sexual interest in you (it won't). I sympathize in that I wasted years of my time convinced that being super nice would drive women's attraction for me (it didn't, and those instincts still have a tendency to hamper my success from time to time).

    (Disclaimer - I'm polyamorous, so I'm not looking for monogamous relationships and certainly not marriage. Take that as you will.) Personally, when I first meet a woman, I am interested in learning about her job, and I ask questions about what she does. I do this not because I'm screening her for her accomplishments, but because I'm already attracted to her for her looks and vibe (or aura, demeanor, etc whatever term you want to use), and I want to connect with her on a personal level. In the US at least, a person's job tends to be a major source of his/her identity, so it's a good bet that you can learn about some of the things a person values by talking to them about their job. Note though that it doesn't really matter what she does - she could be a custodian (point in fact, I have a date scheduled with a custodian today), a business executive, a hair stylist, a nanny, a stripper, etc. I'm not looking for accomplishments, I'm looking to connect with someone I'm already attracted to.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. To follow up, guys don't care what your accomplishments are, or what your job is. We care that you like it--if you hate your job we don't want to be hearing the constant complaints about it.

      Delete
  50. As a long time single entering into a new relationship, I completely agree with you, Andrew, and appreciate that you're honest, not mean or rude, just blunt.

    I have a lot of experience with this particular issue. I know women who console each other at the end of a relationship stating, "you can't change a man!" Then they turn around seeking answers to what attracts men (often in a group setting) and promptly get huffy when men are being honest about turn-ons, especially if the turn-on doesn't describe that woman.

    So why do we pull out the push up bra and dust off the "come f**k me" stilettos for a couple of drinks to catch a guy who loves you for your brain!?! Later in the ladies' room, "oh Susie, this is just what I needed. Great biceps. Do you think I should unbutton another button and see if he notices? Can you drive my car home if I need you to?"

    I can't change the fact that chest hair peeping out the top of an undershirt gets my goat every time any more than a dude can change the fact that female accomplishment is simply not a turn-on. "Oh baby, how do you like those projected sales report numbers...mmm, yeah, I love the font on the side of your bar graph, darling, will you practice your presentation again, pretty please, this time do it holding your paycheck stub?" These things are rarely whispered pre- or post-coital.

    When I truly accepted the unchanging male as truth, I was extremely empowered, much happier and got asked out more often. I was able to weed out jerks. I also took the time to find a diamond in the rough I can respect and relate to who accepts my good, bad and ugly and comes back for more (probably because I sum up my attributes with a Clint Eastwood movie reference). If you believe in your self-worth, so will the people you meet.

    The state of being single is not the fault of Andrew The Blunt Truth Blogger (yeah, it's 330 am and super hero names seem appropriate) who's honestly attempting to share little nuggets of truth despite name calling and ridicule. Keep it up, Andrew! I need to be in bed, but can't stop reading your blogs!

    ReplyDelete
  51. Interesting. I think being successful doesn't make you anymore attractive however, it is a plus and it certainly helps me trust that you actually like me for me. If you are more successful than me we might be in trouble but if you are you shouldn't be dating me you should be dating someone more successful than me.

    I think attraction in general is pretty irrelevant, people just end up with people as attractive as they are. What we are attracted to and what is good for us are very different things.

    I think people are also happiest with people like themselves. Imagine if an unsuccessful guy started dating a supermodel (or a very successful woman), he would just end up jealous, overprotective, etc. However, what about when that guy is with a girl just as attractive as himself (or plus or minus a bit). Suddenly he becomes sweet, confident, and charming!

    ReplyDelete
  52. "But every time she brought up work I got bored."

    So do countless women married to successful (or unsuccessful) guys. Suck it up.

    Apparently I'm a minority, but I'm very interested in women's accomplishments. In their case, a PhD in math doesn't just mean they can do doctorate-level math. It means they were so good in math that they managed to have their skill recognized in a male-dominated and oftentimes depressingly sexist environment. Not only did they work their asses off on the material itself, they did so whilst dealing with stupid comments and assumptions, often on a daily basis. I'd have snapped, personally.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You are living proof that husband material actually exists.

      Delete
  53. I think this article is more accurate about possibly "Western men not caring about your accomplishments". As a woman from an immigrant family, I've had men in my culture and their parents reject me for not being a doctor!

    ReplyDelete
  54. Clarification: guys don't care about girls who BRAG about their accomplishments.

    I'm dating a girl right now who has accomplished ten times as much as other people her age, but I pretty much have to drag it out of her as she doesn't like to brag. I was shocked to have learned about all the stuff she's done the first time I found out, and it definitely made me respect her more.

    In fact, she's teaching me a lot right now. :)

    Sincerely,
    A dude who loves girls

    ReplyDelete
  55. Honestly, I think women get equally bored when men talk about their work. Unless he does something very interesting, hearing about the details of his job IS boring. If a woman acts interested, she's probably just trying to be nice. I think it's important for women to know that the man they're with has a stable career but the daily accomplishments and details are pretty meaningless.

    Being sweet isn't boring for women if the man is otherwise masculine. When a man is manly and confident, having a sweet side is very attractive. The problem is when the sweetness is accompanied by insecurity, indecisiveness, etc etc...

    ReplyDelete
  56. Nice article, but what's wrong with having a career? I happen to be attractive and I have a high IQ. Now, if you were me, what would you choose to do with your time? Make money or date countless douchebags?

    ReplyDelete
  57. I earn good money in a management position. I am well above average in the intelligence stakes. I'm a former Olympic athlete in a male-dominated sport (fact usually kept hidden for as long as possible). I also have no interest in mothering or children. I have completely toned down a previous tendency to be one of the boys, but I still struggle to meet men.
    I receive compliments, but I also seem to suffer from being unapproachable - the men do not initiate conversation with me. Physically, I'm fairly attractive, have good posture and good proportion, wear flattering clothes, nice hair etc. so am not sure what I should be doing next to find that gentleman I'm looking for.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi! :)
      I understand you. If you've already tried improving your "approachability", the next step would be to take over the approaching yourself. The myth that it gets men running is false imo. Most men will feel flattered and welcome you, believe me :) But don't believe me or anyone else, just try it yourself and see the results. A man has such a huge cross to bear with the responsibility of basically doing all the steps, approach flirt attract comfort lead conversations organise dates initiate kiss initiate makeout initiate sex lead lead lead...All that while being interesting, always confident, funny, sexy, you get the drift right? For 99% of men that's just too much, so if you make the first step they will respond nicely I'm sure!

      Delete
    2. Approach, but don't pursue. Pursuit is the man's job.

      Delete
  58. Couldn't agree more with this article. I am seeing in my late 40s that what I was taught at New England boarding school and Ivy League colleges -- that the sexes are equal that that androgyny should be the order of the day -- couldn't be wronger.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Various generalizations I've read in your posts are not applicable in many scenarios. You're not taking into consideration people's varying world-views Interesting posts however

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That's why they're GENERALIZATIONS. I think most reasonable people will figure out that what Andrew says may not necessarily be applicable in every single situation.

      Delete
    2. Why THANK you Joe for your wonderful insight:) You are a truly helpful person, I had NO clue that is what was going on. The point I would like to make is that these 'generalizations' I feel are only applicable to a pretty specific demographic. Therefore me thinksssss all these blanket statements are rather nonsensical..... either way this is funny stuff. Keep it up.

      Delete
  60. What about those who have seriously intense pressure from family to focus on studies and career entirely? :( It's not always that simple.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Marie, I'm in the same boat--a top 10 medical school followed by residency, fellowship, and the whole private practice thing. I told my parents very clearly that even though I'm going to medical school, I'm pursuing a path that aligns with my interests--academic medicine--on a timeline that works with my other life goals that include getting married and having children. I've decided to pursue a gap year immediately after college to do full-time research at the lab I worked at last summer with the understanding that my evenings will be spent husband hunting in earnest. This way, I'll start medical school already married without fear that the 12+ years of training would derail my ability to concentrate time in getting married. Basically, if you make getting married a priority, you're bound to meet someone who wants to get married to you--it's a numbers game and the more you put yourself out there, the more likely it will be that some guy will see you and make things happen.

      Two other notes that Andrew is completely, utterly wrong about.
      (1) "I got bored when the girl I was dating talked about work in the same way that women get turned off when a man starts smothering them with flowers and gifts, or constantly apologizes unnesessarily." -->Not all women are turned off by flowers and gifts and displays of humility. These are beta traits that allow women to bond to their husbands.
      (2) Men WILL MARRY YOU even if you went to a highly competitive medical school/college/grad school/law school and you are more than just a pretty face. If you don't believe me, look at who Ishani Ganguli ended up with and read the New York Times wedding section. There ARE guys out there who actually want a wife who is capable of producing intelligent children capable of getting into HYPMS and who will have skills and talents well after she is past her prime attractive years. There is someone for everyone--if you're a humble, accomplished woman, there is a guy out there waiting to find you.

      Don't settle for insecure guys who didn't go to good schools, who didn't do anything with their lives, who aren't going to be world leaders, who can't handle any form of imperfection in others because they're imperfect themselves, who display highly controlling behavior, and who want their egos constantly stroked. There are guys on your level who will marry you for reasons apart from the way you look. Not all guys are as superficial as former-PUAs.

      Delete
  61. I think a lot of women would instinctively balk at a lot of what these articles say because it goes against the easy grain of the "modern" woman. But after we take a second, take a breath, and realize these are time tested truths that never went way, it starts to become less abrasive and more common sense. It's a hard pill to swallow that a woman can't get by soley on being a strong, independent woman. But then again, it is a universal human truth that women also, like it or not, have an innate sexual radar for certain types of men. We forget we're equal enough to allow ourselves to be different.

    ReplyDelete
  62. which is why i like to feel women have it easier in this department, a woman can live with her parents at pretty much any age and most guys will still accept her, will still date her, but if a guy still lives with his parents by a certain age, most, almost all women will refuse to date him, and women don't really need a post-high school education in order to attract a guy

    ReplyDelete
  63. As a 30-something professional WOMAN, I agree with the OP wholeheartedly. I have countless girlfriends who are professionally and academically successful (six-figure salaries, senior job titles, home owners, etc.), yet they are perpetually single. They look at men who are considered great catches and who are dating women they deem unaccomplished or not on equal footing (no advanced degree, don't own homes, aren't professionals, etc.) and always ask: "why does he want HER, she doesn't have, blah, blah, blah...". What my friends don't realize is that men don't care about those things, especially men who are accomplished in their own right. Why should he care about how much money she makes, if he makes enough for the both of them? Why should he care about her job title? He's dating, not hiring her.

    Men care about how that woman makes him feel, her core values, whether she'll be a good mother, a supportive partner, etc. Degrees and job titles can't take the place of those things.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I do wonder when the wildly "successful" career oriented females will wake up to this concept. Personally, I'm getting tired of going out with my hubby while these same females flaunt their assets and drool over him and try to treat me pissey because I didn't pledge to their sorority or choose to make my life as career driven as there own. Bottom line, women have abandoned the role motherhood and being a wife for their men to support because of deep insecurities adopted by a society that tells them "You don't need a Man!" Thanks to the Murphy Brown era.

      Delete