If you get dumped by a guy you like, remember that although this is probably due in part to men playing below their league, it is also the product of you being ambitious in your relationships: you are trying to get the best guy you can, and therefore you are dating guys that might dump you. In moderation, this ambition is a good thing. If you were constantly settling for guys of a low caliber, then of course you would have more success, but you wouldn't be content.
While it is certainly worthwhile to consider whether or not your standards are realistic, you should also acknowledge how lazy or apathetic you would be to settle for someone below your potential. If you aren't getting dumped by guys, you could probably be doing better.
Related Posts
1. Get Used to Rejection
2. Why Do You Want Him Back?
3. What It Is Like to Be Rejected by Girls
Related Posts
1. Get Used to Rejection
2. Why Do You Want Him Back?
3. What It Is Like to Be Rejected by Girls
Well, you just made my day!
ReplyDeleteNo, it's because many modern men would rather spend quality time with their video game consul than with a woman.
ReplyDeleteOh my god. I'm glad to hear there's other women who have been dumped for an xbox!!
DeleteI gave up my xbox for my girl and didn't touch it for almost two years. Then she left me to get back with her ex. And my games were very important to me.
DeleteTruthfully I don't know any men that would rather play video games than spend time with a woman they find attractive, unless the woman in question is a pain in the ass to be around.
ReplyDeleteI have witnessed this scenario so many times it's pathetic:
-A friend is seeing a guy, heading towards exclusive LTR, or so she thinks
-The guy loses interest, relationship ends
-Friend tells me it's because the guy was too "immature" or "not ready for a relationship"
-Within six months or so, the guy is in an exclusive LTR with another girl
-Friend rationalizes she was "too good" for the guy, his new girlfriend is always fatter, uglier, dumber, sluttier, ect. than her
The single women I'm friends with are always trying to find some way to rationalize their dating failures by blaming men for being too immature for a relationship, when really, they either failed to see the relationship for what it was or they just weren't what the guy was looking for.
This makes a refreshing counterpoint to the usual (justified) railing against "hypergamy" in the Manosphere.
ReplyDeleteEm, I've seen those scenarios too, but all you've proven is that men tend to be much more fickle than women. I certainly wouldn't argue with that.
ReplyDeleteThe worst thing a woman can do is chase or spend her energy on a man that's not absoutely crazy about her.
ReplyDeleteConsider rejection a gift.
That's not what I said. I said that women who are rejected use "he's just immature" as a way of rationalizing and blaming men for why they got rejected, instead of realizing that the guy was simply not interested in them for anything long term. I fail to see where you got "men are much more fickle than women" out of that.
ReplyDelete@Charming Disarray
ReplyDeleteYou might be interested in the Manosphere answer to the accusation that men prefer video games to women. They make a good case that a man, given a choice between an entertaining video game and a ball-busting biatch, will choose the video game each time. If women in general were more feminine and pleasant to be around, then the entire video game industry would be in real trouble. (For the record, the answer makes sense to me--because I've chosen good books over some men before--but I have no personal experience of the Western milieu in which you and these bloggers live.)
Speaking from my own observations now, I think that for every man who is "fickle," there is a woman delaying marriage or childbirth until her thirties, when she is actually less attractive as a life partner to a man. I don't think you can pin all of this on men alone.
Bellita, while I don't disagree with you that men will often choose video games over women, I disagree that it is because women are unpleasant or not feminine enough (though I do believe the latter is true in the US & UK at least). Most of the men I know that play a lot of video games rather than chase women do so because they are intimidated by women - and I don't think it is because women are "too intimidating"; it is because of a natural fear of rejection and general lack of confidence.
DeleteI am curious where you read (or got the impression) that "a man, given a choice between an entertaining video game and a ball-busting biatch, will choose the video game each time."
Keep in mind that the men spending as much time on the internet as the ones you are reading, are not necessarily an accurate representation of all men, and despite high and mighty claims to being "players" or "alphas," are more likely to be the video-game stay at home types.
Em: I think you are right, but for the majority of those women, it is a form of self-defense to keep themselves alive, whereas they know the truth deep down. It reminds me of Meg Ryan in "When Harry Met Sally" who acts proud and ok after her breakup then receives the news that he's getting married and the same night falls apart and screams "he said he didn't want to get married! He just didn't want to marry ME!"I think most girls thinks exactly that, even if they don't show it.
ReplyDeleteIt's not too hard to figure out really. If you've just been dumped or broken up with a guy and he's a player, you'll see the signs in retrospective (you just overlooked them due to hope and infatuation). If he's not the commitment type, you'll know. If you meet him 6 months on and he's still playing the field, he's simply not looking for commitment.
However, some men reach a particular point when they want to settle down. Let's say he was 26 when you broke it off, he's now 27, all his best friends are attached or in LTRs, he's gone tired of the nightclub scene. He's looking for someone to settle down with and (accurate to the taxi theory) he chose the first, sweet available girl. She might be less attractive, less clever and less funny than you, so that situation can actually happen at times. And we know men mature later. However, it is his choice, and no use crying about it.
But I agree with you, the situation you described is far more accurate than most girls want to believe.
"Playing below their league"? That's a big presumption. They may, instead, just assume a woman who's actually quality would give herself up easily.
ReplyDeletevideo games? online sex sites gets men every time!!!!
ReplyDeleteAgreed, men are using porn because dating is just such hard work.
DeleteNot completely true... Porn is also a zero-risk way of enjoying sexual pleasure. Yes, it is easier, but it also avoids the need for the emotional risk (to yourself or the person you want to have sex with) of dating, the STD risk of sex with a new person, and the risk of pregnancy.
DeleteSo we shouldn't settle for men but we should hope that one day a man will settle for us?
ReplyDeleteSeems like cognitive dissonance.....
How you drew that conclusion from what I wrote is beyond me... All I am saying is that you shouldn't be settling so much that you never fail. Take some risks.
DeleteHmm this got me thinking that maybe I tend to date below my league.I guess I have strange taste in men. My friends always think the guys I date aren't that hot. But, love is blind. And I always tend to fall hard and fast. I guess that happens partly because I don't tend to pursue men unless they show very strong interest in me first. But what's wrong with dating below your league if you're happy with your relationships?
DeleteHELP
ReplyDeleteI am in a situation where I am currently waiting on a guy to make up his mind between another girl and myself. Normally, I would not do this sort of thing. However, I am under some impression he is worth it. Throughout our short relation he has been very frank about his situation - 1) that he was seeing a girl 2) he has no clue what is going on because she refuses to meet with him. In the midst of their relapse - he met me. We hit it off. She saw us together and she did not go crazy but proceeded to tell him how sorry she was and how angry and jealous she felt. They speak still, and he lets me know.
He says he does not know what to do. He has feelings for her and for me as well. I can clearly see his confusion. Let us not add how sex has confused this equation further, because he slept with her, told me, and then I slept with him. It is reckless and risky on all our parts (much to say i have scheduled a doctor's appt for STD testing for January - after all, it takes about 6 months for an STD to reveal itself). Stupid, stupid, I know.
He is the one who said he cannot do this thing with both of us, because mentally he cannot handle it. He asked that I give him time, which I have agreed to.
My question - is how ridiculous am i? I sincerely believe that he will not choose me. That is fine. I think it is important for him to let me go. He is a good person who found him self in a crazy situation - as have i.
What is your analysis?
You aren't ridiculous. You like a guy who is a little confused right now. It happens.
DeleteI suggest you tell him essentially what you just typed above. Tell him that you really like him and want to date, but that you understand there is this other girl. Also tell him that while you appreciate the fact that he has a tough decision to make, you would appreciate it if he would make it and then stick to his decision so that you can move on if you need to. While he asked for time and that is reasonable, don't let him take TOO long to make up his mind. A couple weeks should be more than enough.
Your game should simply be waiting to find out what his decision is. I don't recommend sending him gifts or anything. Just be yourself (though it wouldn't hurt to be your hottest self...) and wait for a reasonable amount of time, then live with whatever decision he makes. The world won't end if you don't end up with him!
Dear Andrew,
DeleteThank you so very much for your prompt reply.
It is rather clear that a decision has to be made by him. I do agree that the world will not end if he is not with me. I am indeed confident in my ability to meet someone else. That is never a problem.
As for my game,the waiting game! Oh boy! I suffer terribly when it comes to waiting. It is a real battle. My question arises as to what is the most time I ought to give him? I figured I might get tired, and call him, and if he has not made a choice end it - I suppose. The last time I saw and spoke to him was Sunday.
Part of me feels that I should in no way contact him. This girl leaves in a month to another state, but due to their respective jobs (flight attendants) a long distance relationship is feasible. If he makes a decision in a month - I will damn well end it. To top it off, she lives next door to him. Her window is directly opposite the entrance to his home. I feel at a complete disadvantage, but let me tell you - i firmly believe that ought not to matter in his decision-making. But then again, who knows the influence?
In the end, I suppose that patience is a virtue. Essentially Andrew, what is the appropriate waiting time you think?
Thank you,
Krazy Person
"after all, it takes about 6 months for an STD to reveal itself"
DeletePlease, please educate yourself throroghly on STD's.
Many STD's reveal themselves within a couple of days to a couple of weeks, or for some people, they never have symptoms at all but are still transmissible from you to a partner; some STD's cannot be revealed by blood tests until 3 months, some cannot be reliably diagnosed by blood test or swab etc.
http://www.medhelp.org/ is an excellent resource - check out the forums there - just about any risk scenario you can think of has already been asked there by someone already.
Yes, I understand completely about the STD's and I am overall informed. Thanks for placing emphasis on the issue.
DeleteUpdate- I broke it off completely. I was fine with the idea of waiting, but it just came to point where it was not fine anymore. I called him and ended it. He was accepting of it, and said that I am an awesome person. Sadly, I believe he was relieved. My ego is a little bruised.
Despite this, I am working on being a better me, which also means a more safe and responsible person.
Thank you for your insight.
Sincerely,
Krazy Person
Hi Andrew,
ReplyDeleteI recently have kept in contact with the brother of this guy who I essentially dated and talked to for years but never really had any physical and mental attraction for. So far, I've been the one who initiates contact with him and we recently hung out (went to his house for wine / fooled around a little bit) and lightweight hung out last weekend too but everytime he says he will text me the next day...he doesnt. He seems interested but could he be just screwing with my head? obviously the story is much more detailed than this but can you help me?
thank you,
Girlneedingadvice :)
I think this is true in SOME cases. Some girls like to play it safe - they always have a boyfriend (usually a league lower than themselves), and they always get callbacks, not because they're hot, but because they give their numbers to losers.
ReplyDeleteBut I think this mindset applies a bit more to men than to women. If a lot of women shoot you down in a bar, you can think to yourself that at least you are ambitious (keeping in mind that women too have different taste and not everyone can like you). A woman can be 'rejected' in the sense that a man asks for her number and never calls, in which case this post applies. But a lot of the time a woman is 'rejected' much further down the line. He is already attracted to her, and it is unlikely that he has found her "not good enough" after two months of dating. This also depend on how many obstacles she puts in front of him - of she follows all the advice on this blog, and lets him initiate the entire way, I think the breakups are less likely to be simply due to him playing below his league. Most likely something else happened - or maybe she did something wrong. I'd love to tell myself that the breakups I've had were due to me being very ambitious. But when I've ended it, it's been due to other things - either distance/life situations, or I just found out he was an asshole.
You wrote a post called "The female's internal conflict". If this post applies to a woman, depends entirely on what side of the scale a woman finds herself, don't you think? Some women are turned on by 'hard to get' men, others are wanting men to kiss their feet. Most are somewhere in between, but as long as they want a man to chase them (i.e. will not initiate), his interest will be clear and he will not by too far 'out of her league'. I don't know, maybe this is just me. But as long as a man works hard to get me over months, I'll believe there are other reasons for the relationship to end (if it eventually does), than him being out of my league.
If a man works hard, you will consider him? Oh, how nice!
DeleteThis blog is probably written by a little kid, but let me explain. Even men are intelligent creatures (yes, they are) and when a man is looking for a LTR he might consider the personality of a woman, too. Actually, this is what intelligent men and women are doing when they try to settle down (... for some years) :D.
ReplyDeleteSo, when a "man" tries to explain complicated social interactions between men and women by writing "He dumps you because HE is playing below his league", one gets the impression the author just reached puberty, or is simply not educated enough.
Dear author,
Dumb guys just get the dumb girls, without exception. But it's actually good for you, because you'll never understand what my text is about and you'll live your happy ONS-life forever.
Dear educated women,
Pleaso don't take this blog seriously.
Why is it that when a guy makes up his mind that its time to ge married, he has no patience? Dating a guy for 6 months - he proposes - I ask him to give me another 6 months to decide and he can't understand why I need more time. He says he already knows what he needs to know about me and 6 months won't change anything. Well I refused to say yes and within a week he is online looking for girls to date. Well what can I say - this is about the 4th time I've been dumped after trying to delay getting engaged.
ReplyDeleteWhat are you doing to get all these proposals? :)
DeleteYes, I'd love to know too!!!
DeleteDating below her league, I guess :P
DeleteSally: definitely.
DeleteIt's been stated before that women who complain about lack of attention from men actually mean they don't get attention from the men they want.
It's always puzzled me when people say about certain women "she's very beautiful. She's never without a boyfriend!".
Getting a boyfriend is rarely a problem if your standards are low.
That's sort of like guys who have a high sexual partner count - it could mean they are attractive to women, but it could also just mean that they have low standards. I have friends that fall into both categories.
DeleteYes, but for guy with high counts there is usually a combination. They need at least a certain skill set to get a woman to bed, at least for some of them. An attractive girl can always get a man for a relationship, especially when you're young as <25 men get into relationships for the sake of regular sex. The commitment is also of less value as they consider it temporary (not marrying women they meet too young anyway). Women with plenty of serial relationships have more often than not low standards.
DeleteI'm currently in a confusing situation can anyone help? I have 2 children and split with their father 4 years ago. I am 27 and have not dated much in this time, I have my own company, home etc so the only thing missing was love.
ReplyDeleteI dated a few guys but none of them had 'it' (the tummy turning excitement!) so they fizzled out and I didn't really mind.
3 months ago I met a guy on a dating site, we just Fit together like peas and carrots it's been AmAzInG :)
We had a wonderful weekend together and didn't stop laughing as usual, he told me he was so happy... But by Tuesday all that changed and he dumped me!
It's confusing me because he has sent me msgs like;
Youre the most amazing girl I've ever met,
Genuine and beautiful with your heart on your sleeve which is nice.
You havn't any faults beautiful you were perfect in our relationship and did nothing wrong at all your such a sweet person.
I just didn't know where or howt I was supposed to be.
You deserve someone better then me who knows how to treat a sweet loving lady like you.
I feel honoured that you even looked twice at me let alone let me into your life.
I just wrote; I give up I'm so confused!
He has also told me he is heart broken and misses me but this only happened a few days ago.
He has voiced that when he speaks to me it makes him think about me and miss me more but when I don't he seems more able to function and busies himself! So will ignoring him work?
Please bare in mind the pair of us are late 20's early 30's with 3 children between us.
I do want him back but if that's to happen it needs to be for keeps or I'm walking... Going around in circles isn't my style!! I was angry when he finished things and calmly said there's no going back and he understood!
Please HeLp x
These guys are blown away by your wonderfulness, too blown away. Find more accomplished (and maybe even better looking) men, higher up the social scale. And when you do find one, or a few, practice letting them be your hero. Surely there is something you need help with? Even if you're happy with someone below your level, let him think he's useful to you. Men want to be useful to us.
DeleteI love this post, Andrew. Brief, to the point, brutally honest.
ReplyDeleteI recently had a guy chasing me for a long time, a mutual friend fix-up, and I didn't know what my friend saw that I didn't because he was short, fat and bald and kind of nerdy. Below my league.
And then I figured out one day that he was a diamond in the rough. I realized I really liked this guy. I saw that he was actually "out of my league" -- up there -- in some ways I had overlooked.
Too late. He told me that he was getting back together with his messed-up, addictive, codependent mess of an ex-girlfriend. Quite frankly, because of the good sex. And he was happy with his decision.
He didn't need to date "out of his league" anymore.
I got dumped! By a guy I thought was below me, but that's the whole point. He didn't like that. Some guys settle down with their settle-fors.
As for Princess Me, I'll trade up. My strategy here is to show my Prince how I'm not to be underestimated. I'm "in his league" while still looking up to him in some ways (sincerely!). Perhaps the secret is to refrain from kicking his ass about how I read him like a book. I don't have to rub his nose in it. I'm worth pursuing because I'm up there with him, a real prize to be won, yet kind and humble. On those days when I have to submit to his superiority, I'll understand that's the deal. It always was the deal, and I chose it by trading up. The sign on the wall says, "No Whining."
If you want to be a trophy wife, wear the pearls, honey.
Do you know how many of these big shots secretly visit dominatrix dungeons? I have a friend who can stroll Wall Street and point out the precise floor of each building that has one of these places in it; she herself makes $200 and hour doing that. Big shots are married to wimpy little doormats, and they hate it.
Because he wants to feel secretly that his woman knows more than he does and still puts up with him. Secretly, though. Don't literally dominate him. Just remind him subtly that you're "up there" without showing him everything you've got. In other words, he tamed you and now he gets to ride you.
My own father once shared with me how he suddenly brought out the bottle of Cutty Sark and forced my mother to really tell him what she thought about things -- in about 1970. And how turned on he was that she was smarter than he thought. He even forced her to get a job. The marriage fell apart later, but society was hard on marriages in those years; everyone was confused about how to navigate this new territory of complete honesty that he was so turned on about. He left her for a really out-there, up-there, powerhouse of a young woman who is now a big shot in her home country's financial system. But they never got married, and broke up because he felt unloved in the end -- see what I mean about being confused? He's still trying to work out how he feels about her, as friends, lots of love between these two but no resolution. Nobody compromised with reality. Sad.
i wish the girl i like could/can see i am a diamond in the rough
ReplyDeleteSommebody PLEASE EXPLAIN this one... Keep in mind I do not trust easily, I have been hurt before in a long-distance relationship, and was very cautious before I let myself get involved in this one. Met a guy online we talked for about a month before meeting. He lived in california, I lived Chicago but there was talk already about how i wanted to move there and he would consider moving back here (not for me). But he came to Chicago for work every month so naturally we met because I did very much get along with him so the only thing to see was if we had physical chemistry. And oh yes, we did. The only thing that was hard and standing in our way was this: our zip code and his inability to express his emotions. But then guys tells me that men express themselves mostly through their actions so I took that into consideration.
ReplyDeleteHe spent money and time to see me and for me to see him. We had great adventures over about 4-5 months but he decided he was moving to Austin (and I put his emotions first through the move period) and that was confusing for me so I spoke to him and asked where there put us and if this was still a serious option. I asked BEFORE we ever got involved (he had just been divorced a year) if he was ready for a long term relationship, if he wanted the same things i did, and I told him I can't be involved with someone emotionally unavailable and make same mistake... SO last weekend I was supposed to go to Austin for first time he just moved but didn't have his things yet and decided for me to postpone my trip until he was in order. that hurt, but i rescheduled.
Then in frustration sent a text telling him that I wanted to know how he felt about me, us, this and i was confused and frustrated bc he is not opening up to me. And I'm not pressuring him but it would make a world of difference. And also, another thing is how to deal with sexual frustration when we don't see each other for 3-4 weeks. And should I date other ppl?? Anyway his reponse was I hear you loud and clear can we talk tomorrow. Well folks, his idea of talking to me was breaking the whole thing off jsut like that. For us to never see each other again and that he decided this was the right thing to do and that long distance is not for him!! HA. HA. The manner in which he was speaking to me was cold, completely inflexible, and frankly mean. Up to that point he was a source of support, compassion, understanding for me. I was utterly shocked. And hurt. I still am. I told him I thought he was making the wrong decision by not letting us have a chance at this and that I was falling in love with him. I let go of all my feelings and was honest. so WTF?? How do men go from talking to a woman every day whether through text or calls and then boom, NOTHING?? Is he a monster or what? I don't know how to deal.
Wow, so many girls talking about guys in lower leagues and how you 'date-down'. Get some objective outside feedback, it can be very useful (and painful)
ReplyDeleteit's hard for women to get objective feedback. the guys all flatter her to get in her pants, and the girls all sabotage her with flattery.
Deletei suppose the only objective feedback would be whatever "league" her committed boyfriend or husband is, that's what league she is. ladies, just remember that a man's "league" is not defined by his looks. also remember not to include one night stands and short term relationships.
A man's league is not completely defined by his looks, but his looks are certainly a big part of it.
Delete"A man's league is not completely defined by his looks, but his looks are certainly a big part of it."
DeleteDepends. The younger the girl is, the more important the guy's looks are. For an 18 year old girl, a guy's looks are probably pretty important. But even for her, his attitude and demeanor are more important. Imagine a really good looking guy who's a total wimp. She's not gonna be attracted for more than 5 minutes. By the time a woman is 30, a guy's looks play a pretty minor role. Of course, if the guy is totally ugly, no one's gonna want that (unless he's super rich haha).
Bottom line is a guy's looks is never as important to a girl as a girl's looks are to a guy.
"A man's league is not completely defined by his looks, but his looks are certainly a big part of it."
ReplyDeletemy point was that when you are trying to determine your "league", just because your boyfriend is a 5 in looks doesn't mean he's a 5. you have to factor in the things women care about: confidence, ambition, wealth, job, etc. he may actually be a 7. and that would probably make you an 7 a well.
know what i mean?
oops posted outside the thread. this was directed at "K".
DeleteMy ex still refused to talk to me after 30 months of our break-up. We were lovers for 4 years (from 2006), he dumped me and married another woman, and his marriage was broken in 19 days and again we were together then his wife returned saying that she is pregnant and he refused to divorce her and left me in isolation. I still can't forget him and now I tried to contact him, he is not responding to my calls. Any advice, please.
ReplyDeleteI hope to get some clarity on my relationship with my first love. We met our senior year while I was gf to someone 'not in my league'. We were together on and off for 7 years, I deeply loved him and vice versa, but we always had the issue of him being alot more social than I am and he is what I like to call a 'captain save a hoe' and had far too many female friends that he was 'like a brother to.' Needless to say, this made me very insecure. Fast forward, we are now both 30/31 and I have a two year old with another man. I remained single for 3 years after our last breakup and ended up with a guy who was VERY agressive and assertive which I felt first love never was. Especially in his reassuring me of his love for me. Turns out, this guy was a jealous, borderline, needy person. Our relationship which has gone on for 3 years is coming to an end and first love has been very eager in inquiring about me through my family and has texted me once a week since Im newly single and wants to do lunch. So much has changed now that I am a mother etc, but in many ways it still feelsthe same when we talk. In a previous break up last year, again, first love was finding every reason in the book to see me and my son...from wanting to run errands for me to setting up my internet service. When I finally just came out and asked why he was doing all if this, his response was, "I know were complicated, but I'll be damned if anyone is going to treat you the way (ex) has and I guess if we cant be together youre justgoing to have to settle on me being a big brother.' WHAT IN THE FK? Who spends that much time and effort on being an ex's big brother!? Could he justbe scared? What gives?
ReplyDeleteIt seems like when i date men below my level i get dumped and or treated badly. It's as if they know they can't make me happy and provide what i want emotionally or financially so they don't even want to try. It seems like they just want to see if they can have sex with me since they don't feel up to the challenge of trying to make me happy in a relationship. I think if i dated men at my level or higher i would have better success...
ReplyDelete