Wednesday, October 12, 2011

"Bros Before Hos"

Men place a high value their male friendships. While the following scenarios may not be representative of every man's attitude towards his male friends, they are certainly representative of a large portion of them, and they may very well explain why the guy you have a crush on isn't making a move.

1. "Bros Before Hos"

Situation: Guy A likes you. He is a decent guy, and when asks you out, you decide to give him a chance. You go on a couple dates, but eventually you realize he isn't quite your type and you relegate him to the friends zone. You can tell he is disappointed but there is never an explicit "break up" since there was never a real relationship, just a couple dates. Before long you are hanging out as friends, in larger groups, and eventually meet his friend, Guy B. Guy B is attractive, and even flirts with you, but never makes a move. Maybe he is a little more overt with his affection when he is drunk, or flirts more with you when Guy A isn't around, but the status quo always returns and you get discouraged and confused.

Explanation: Guy B likes you - maybe even a lot - but he isn't making any advances because it would be humiliating to Guy A if his friend ended up with the girl that he wanted but couldn't have. While he wants to be with you, he places more value on a long-term friendship with Guy B than he does on a potential girlfriend - however much he thinks he likes you at first glance. In a guy's world, the two relationships are mutually exclusive.

2. Most Guys Won't Cross Swords

Situation: You got drunk at a party/bar and slept with Guy A. The next week you are out with a similar group of friends, but Guy A doesn't come out because he is away for the week. Guy B, however, does show up. He was also there last week and is actually much hotter than Guy A, but had a girl with him last time and wasn't paying attention to you. This week he flirts with you a lot but doesn't ask for your number or respond to your strong sexual advances. You go home alone, feeling insulted.

Explanation: Guy B wants to bang you, but he was there last week when Guy A told his buddies about having sex with you. Not only is Guy B kinda creeped out by the thought of his junk touching the same vagina as his friend's, but you slept with his buddy first, so he feels like he is second best if he hooks up with you now, after his friend.

(NB - For some reason, enlisted military guys do not care about this. They will actually fuck you at the same time - maybe even touch dicks in the process - without a second thought.)

3. He Pointed You Out First

Situation: You are in a bar having a beer with your girlfriend when Guy A and Guy B approach the two of you. They are both cool, but Guy A is hitting on your friend while Guy B is talking to you. This is a problem because not only do you think Guy A is hotter, but you know that your friend actually prefers Guy B, so in your minds, things are completely mixed up. Although you try a couple times to change the conversation so that you can chat with Guy A, the guys eventually bring it back. You end up giving your number to Guy B when he asks, and Guy A takes your friend's number. It's great that you met them, but you wish the pairing had been the other way around.

Explanation: Guy A and Guy B saw you and your friend from across the bar. Guy B pointed you out to Guy A, and suggested that they go together to say what's up to you. Guy A had actually seen you two at just about the same time as Guy B, and was more attracted to you than he was to your friend. In fact, he probably would have hit on you himself if he'd seen you a minute earlier; but because Guy B already had his hopes up about meeting you, Guy A encouraged Guy B, and played wingman with your friend (he asked for her number in front of you so that you would be more receptive about giving yours to his friend). Since the guys' initial conversation established who was going after whom, they both actively fought to maintain the conversation pairing when you attempted to change it. While Guy A sacrificed an opportunity to get a date with a cute girl (you), it was more important to him that he support his friend, who pointed you out first.


  1. I don't know if you're military/a vet, but I may be able to offer a little insight on this:

    "(NB - For some reason, enlisted military guys do not care about this. They will actually fuck you at the same time - maybe even touch dicks in the process - without a second thought.)"

    I was a Marine grunt for a long time. As far as we were concerned, the guys in my platoon were the only real people on the planet. All the other bipedal, air-breathing things we came into contact with were put on Earth to amuse us, hassle us, or serve as targets.

    In addition, the guys in my squad knew each other so well that we were more like fingers on a hand than separate beings. We lived together, worked together, ate together, slept in the same patch of dirt, and walked on the same dusty roads.

    In some barracks, the toilets (sans doors or stalls) were near the open showers. After awhile, taking a shower and having a conversation with your buddy (who was taking a dump) seemed a normal part of life.

    Live like that for a few years, and tag-teaming some bar skank for laughs doesn't even make the needle on the Human Decency Meter quiver.

    That ought to serve as a warning for any young lady looking to be involved with a young enlisted guy. You are always going to come in second to his unit and his mission. Even if you somehow prove to him that you are, in fact, an actual human being. Even if he loves you more than life itself.

    To be fair, it won't be his choice to make. Some crusty old hardass Sergeant like I used to be will make goddamned sure your guy is organized, trained, equipped, and in formation 10 minutes prior, because that what Sergeants do.

    You might be number one to your guy, but that Sergeant doesn't give two shits about you unless you're detracting from his Marine's ability to kick doors and put rounds downrange. He'll fix that problem and you won't like how he does it.

    I'm actually a pretty nice guy these days, believe it or not. Also, to my knowledge, my penis has never touched another man's penis. I can say that now because Don't Ask, Don't Tell is over.

    Dogsquat, Sgt USMC (ret)

    1. Interesting take. I've always wondered how many married/committed men in the army are cheating on their wives. There are not many situations of cheating that would be easier to hide than fucking skanks or prostitutes across the world.

    2. I don't know why I haven't replied to this comment earlier, but it is definitely one of my favorites.

  2. haha, wow, thanks for the comment Sgt, that's actually very insightful!

    artist and musician types usually capture my attention over the pure military men... but I appreciate the combat/spirit of it, as I've the types I've always respected or crushed on in the past have generally been *militant/combative* artists writers musicians and philosophers... my husband being my best example of the type :-)

    but you should also repost this somewhere where girls who are dating or interested in enlisted men can see it!

  3. It's funny, because girls act oppositely. They will betray their friends for just a little bit of attention from a guy, and they are more attracted to guys their friends have slept with. There are obvious evolutionary reasons for this, which probably don't need explaining.

    I wish I could have other girl friends who were as loyal as most guys are to each other.

    1. what are you talking about. My girlfriends would never go for a guy I was serious about and vice versa. You must have really shitty girlfriends. Any guy my friend was serious with at any point in her life I still would never be interested or attracted to them and that is how all 6 of my best friends are. We have been bestfriends since we were 6 years old and are now 30 and have never shared guys. You need to get some new girl friends.

    2. I don't know if I would betray a friend to get attention from her hot boyfriend, but when it's over -- when he's broken up with her -- even if I have a bit of guilt about it, I might consider his advances. It would depend. But it wouldn't be out of the question.

      Probably, given the explanations above, a lot of guys wouldn't consider it with me. Or would they?

      The post is about male loyalty, not male loyalty to ex-girlfriends.

    3. I would never ever even look at my girlfriends guys or ex-guys. They are a no no and I can only see them as bros. Firstly because I might know more about them then they actually think and second because I would feel strange about him touching me.

      As for "Bros before hos", I am the exception that proves the rule as I am seeing my ex's best friend. Or it may not be that strange since I never had sexual intercourse with my ex?

  4. so is there nothing that a girl can do in these situations (if she likes the other guy), at least provided that nothing much happened between the girl and the 1st guy i.e. no sex etc and no friendship afterwards but she still knows all his friends, they seem to be flirting with her, but seem too awkward to talk to her about anything but the 1st guy?

    1. You essentially have to hang in there until enough time passes that it won't be an issue anymore. But in some situations this never happens.

  5. Woah. Example 1. is my exact situation down to every detail! I was so blind to why Guy B might be being so on/off. I really hope that me and Guy B can get past this.. damn.

  6. The link to this discussion was sent to me by a female coworker and fellow vet who thought that I would get a kick out of it. I think that the blog itself is brilliant. You are absolutely spot on in most of your observations, but I take extreme exception to your generic portrayal of the guys in the military. (That would probably be why she sent me the link in the first place.)

    I can’t speak for all military types. But I myself have never participated in a multi-partner scenario as you have describe it. Nor do I know more than a handful or guys that I have ever met who have. I retired from the Army in 2008 and during the two decades that I was in I met only two guys in the military who admitted to gang banging and in both cases it was while they were with their non-military comrades. I don’t know if this is a Marine thing or what. Since you seem to live near the west coast training center for the Marine corps, you can ask them. I am not saying that there weren’t guys that I was enlisted with whom I would put past such behavior, but they were far from the norm. So being a military guy and decorated combat vet, I take exception to be generically lumped into a group of men that participate in what I consider to be base sexual and immoral behavior.

    To go further still. While I was in a leadership capacity in the military I would not tolerate any of my soldiers treating women (uniformed or not) in a disrespectful manner. This was not to be PC, but because it infringed on my personal ethics and the core values (loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity and personal courage) that I accepted when I raised my right hand and swore my oath of enlistment in the US Army. I am not prudish or saintly when it comes to sexuality. Everyone has their personal freak flag to fly, but my belief is that tolerance of such negative behavior by a military leader inadvertently condones that behavior in the ranks. I have a sister who went through a sexual assault while in the Navy. I have had several female friends who while in the military have been victims of sexual abuse in one way or another. I also have a teenage girl who plans to be a nurse in the Air Force. To me it is unthinkable to be a leader and role model and to stay silent on the subject.

    SSG US Army (ret)

    1. Thank you for your post. When I read the first comment about "tag teaming some bar skank for laughs". I was horrified. This a blog giving women advice, but now I just don't want to date Marines...ever.

  7. What do you do when a guy doesn't really include you in conversation?
    I'm dating a guy who has asked me along when he goes out with friends a few times. He asks me out just the two of us as well, which is always great. He doesn't push for sex (although a bit when he's drunk) and I get the feeling he wants to get to know me. He's a very social and extroverted guy, and his group of friends know each other very well, whereas I am not a very extroverted person. Last time they were chatting along and he turned around so I was actually excluded. The only person in the group who really approaches me for conversation is one of his male friends whom I think has a thing for me.
    He isn't touchy-feely either. I'm wondering whether he's afraid of being the guy who's all about his girlfriend. Does that happen? How do I call him out on it?

    1. If a guy isn't making you happy, dump him and find someone who will. People are either affectionate or not. If you need affection find someone who is also affection. As for being left out, I would talk to him about it. Saying something like "hey I really like your friends, you are all so fun together but I am feeling a bit left out can you make an effort to include me more?" If he doesn't, dump him.

    2. It sounds like your boyfriend has strong friendships, which you’d probably want to encourage him to maintain, while figuring out how you can fit in.

      Obviously, if something is bothering you, a sign of a good relationship is that you can talk to him honestly about it. I would probably approach this (& other relationship issues) with two things in mind:

      Can I put myself in the other person’s position, & understand where he’s coming from?
      What can I do to tackle the problem while putting priority on building the relationship?

      Without knowing specifics of how you are in group settings or new environments (introverts can also be good conversationalists), I would say that in general, it’s good to see what you can do to contribute/rectify the situation, rather than sitting back & thinking that it’s his responsibility to fix things.

      So listen to the conversation(s) & see where you can jump in. Observe the dynamic. Presumably, he has already introduced you to his friends; if not, stick out your hand & introduce yourself. Strike up a conversation with the people on either side of you.

      As Andrew has said, we have a shared responsibility in developing the relationship.

      I agree with what Julia suggested as far as future gatherings (but I wouldn’t go as far as dumping him for only this reason). I myself have sometimes tried to be more inclusive of a new person by bringing up a point of commonality & then hope others in the group will turn to that person & pick up on that conversational thread. So maybe he can do this for you.

      As far as affection goes, it’s true that different people have different ways of showing love. I don’t think you should dump someone just based on this. If this were the case, my husband would’ve dumped me long ago. (I wasn’t raised to be as touch-feely as he was, but I'm working on it.)

    3. Maybe He's not as outgoing as you think?

      This comment reminded me of a guy I went out with a few times in my teens, basically he'd be really keen for me to go out for a drink with him at his local and then I'd be really confused because I'd just get the side of his head all night, and I'd just end up chatting to his friends or family.
      With hindsight I can see that he was nervous talking to me although confident talking to his friends which made him look confident overall and made me think he just didn't want to talk to me.

      I think the fact he's including you with his friends and family says something,

      Hope that helps

  8. Women who don't approach men, have zero right to whine about the outcomes not going according to their silent preference.

  9. Hi Andrew, I wonder if you're still answering these posts?
    Well, I'll ask anyway.
    So I'm a bit younger than the main demographic on this website. Think 16.
    I'm interested in this one guy. And, from my own observations, I think that he might like me too (Caught him staring at me a few times-and he did not break eye contact, whenever he does talk to me he spends most of the time looking for words and staring at me in an almost trance like state and he always seems to stand very close when near). He has no problem asking me for something as mundane as an eraser, or what the hell x might be, but when it comes to casual conversation seems to be a struggle, initiated by him or me.He's very outgoing. I'm cripplingly shy. I've made some effort to get to know him better, but it seems nothing has happened in the past 8 months.My question is, am I wrong?Should I move on?

    Also, what is your stance on people with their recognised emotional issues (e.g severe daddy issues, unable to trust)and them dating? Completely unrelated to the other question btw.

  10. Andrew... Has it occurred to you that you have no class and no manners? Bros before HOES?? really??? You cannot address the lovely creation of women any better that calling them hoes? Bitches and hoes... yup, a massive reduction in respect to women by just how men refer to us, and none of you idiot women care or even notice. Hey there blind women, yea you! wake the hell up and demand some respect. You are nothing but a pretty face and a set of holes for men to fuck if you don't require respect!

  11. Blaker, perhaps you didn't notice the quotes in "Bros before hos"?

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