Thursday, April 4, 2013

Men and "Friends With Benefits"

While explaining her relationship with a guy she is interested in, a reader who recently wrote to me for advice reminded me of the difference between the typical male and female approach to being "friends with benefits":
I guess we're friends with benefits because there's no commitment on both parts. I also made a conscious choice that it was only purely physical with what happened between us (only twice by the way). But I liked his company and the flowing conversations we had. I didn't put any pressure on him either. I had no illusions, in other words. I was, however, hoping that we could learn more about each other slowly and establish a good foundation before going to the next level. But again, I had no illusions.
The simple fact is that men almost never fall in love this way, despite what you saw in the fictional movie (emphasis on fictional), No Strings Attached. The woman quoted above might not have had any illusions about the fact that the relationship was purely sexual, but I suspect she did have some illusions about just how unlikely it was that her love interest would change his perspective on the relationship. If she hadn't, she wouldn't have wasted her time.

It has been my experience - both personal and vicarious - that the vast majority of women view a casual sexual relationship as a potential stepping stone towards a relationship. Men, on the other hand, see it as nothing more than what it sounds like: sex with no emotional ties, no commitment, nothing. If anything, men treat it as a step away from a committed relationship, because if they wanted more from a woman, they wouldn't settle for mere sex; they'd want her exclusivity also. (If this sounds familiar, it is probably because it is almost identical to the difference between the male and female perspectives on moving in together before marriage.)

Any man who is mildly observant of the opposite sex will have a hunch in the back of his mind that this kind of relationship is bound to explode eventually. But he isn't going to turn down all of the commitment-free sex he'll get in the meantime just because of some "feeling." Men don't trust feelings the way women do. Men are hyper-rational, literal creatures. If it is called "no-strings-attached" relationship, that's exactly how he treats it, no matter how much cuddling and hanging out is involved.

Furthermore, a man will often be willing to engage in a relationship like this with a woman who is below his league, in the same way that many people will have lower standards for the quality of the house they lease, as opposed to the one they eventually buy.

Yes, of course, I know, there are occasional exceptions. There are always exceptions. Once in a while, a long-term relationship or even a marriage can grow out of something that started as friends-with-benefits. But the point is that, when it comes to casual sexual relationships, the exceptions are so rare that you'll be far better off avoiding them completely than taking a gamble on even the most apparently promising ones.

So before you jump at the opportunity to "get closer" to the man you want by making things sexual, recognize that his willingness to engage in a casual sexual relationship with you is actually a step away from commitment, not a step towards it.

222 comments:

  1. Here's one for you Andrew,

    Dated a guy for 2 weeks. At the end of those two weeks, he said he wasn't feeling the chemistry and broke it off. (by 2 weeks I mean every day for those 2 weeks) I was, "okay, bye."

    Three months later he contacts me saying he was intellectually attracted to me and wanted to be friends. I was like, "sure, why not."

    One day into being "friends", he asked me to be friends with benefits with him. I said, "no way, besides I'm not going to sleep with someone who is not attracted to me."

    We continued to be "friends" for 3 months. Basically, we dated with some making out but no sex. At one point, I was ready to just have a FWB relationship with him. When I initiated sex, he said, he "wasn't in the mood."

    A few weeks later, he told me he wasn't attracted to me (even though he got a hard on every time I entered the room), and said it would be smart of me to leave him. "But, hey, that if I wanted to look him up a few years from now, if I was still interested, I should."

    So I said, "Bye. I don't want to see or hear from you, but hey, I might look you up 6 months from now just to trade notes."

    3 months later, he contacted me out of the blue asking if we are still going to meet up, that he thinks of me all the time, and hoping that I'll give him another shot.

    I ignored him. Shrug, I don't get it. He says he isn't attracted to me, but he wanted to have sex, but he won't have sex, he thinks of me, but tells me to go away. And they say women are confusing! This is drama I don't need in my life or relationship.

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    1. If your dating options are such that you have to settle for guys who act this way, you have other problems. But I suspect you DO have other options, so forget this guy.

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    2. He's not really attracted to you, but contacts you and tells you what you want to hear when he doesn't have any other options available.

      A friend of one of the guys I dated told me he would have sex with this girl even though he was not attracted to her. He said he would close his eyes and think of someone else so he could get hard. He said sometimes no matter what he could not stomach having sex with her but kept her around because having sex with someone unattractive to him was better than no sex at all.

      Sorry if this hurts your feelings, but I've known of at least two guys personally who have told me that they will have sex with girls they're not remotely attracted to just because they were horny.

      And please don't think that because a guy gets a hard on that means he's attracted to you. Men get a hard on because the wind blows. Andrew, am I right?

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    3. Yes and no. Some men get hard more readily than others. What is categorically true is that just because a man gets hard, doesn't mean that he likes you enough to sleep with you, let alone enough to date you.

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    4. He's a user, don't even respond to him. Cheeky bastard.

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    5. I agree with everything said here. My confusion is this...

      If he is not attracted to me, why does he want to sleep with me? If it is because any sex is better than no sex (which is what I think the answer is), then why wouldn't he sleep with me when I finally said "fine, I'll be your little FB, let's go!"?

      Maybe he is so unattracted to me he just couldn't go through with it.

      And make no mistake, he did date me. I always called us either "friends" or "FBs". It was him who would always said we were dating. >.>

      Actually now that I think about it... I think maybe he was just lonely and figured any girl at his side was better than no one. That's why his actions were always those of a boyfriend but his words said "I don't like you."

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    6. There are plenty of possible reasons:

      a. He started seeing someone else and didn't need sex from you anymore
      b. He had an STD outbreak
      c. His foresight kicked in and he didn't want to sleep with you then deal with the drama afterwards
      d. His conscience kicked in and he didn't want to sleep with you then deal with the compunction afterwards
      e. etc.

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    7. He likes you but hotter girls are also available.

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    8. I think Andrew's advice only applies to SANE men. Have you considered that this guy is just a basket case? Some people's behavior is simply not explainable. Andrew can not explain the way a guy acts if the guy is just nuts.

      I am an expert about this. I'm totally in love with someone who is nuts, and I read this blog trying to make sense of his actions... but I've recently come to terms with the fact that they will never make sense. And I have to either accept that that's the way he is, or move on. In my case, I practically live with the guy, he does everything a boyfriend would do - even a good boyfriend. But he can be really "hot and cold." Most of the time we simply have fun together. But when we have to have serious conversations sometimes he's very aloof and seemingly indifferent about our relationship, and other times pours his heart out and clings to me like a baby. I have just started to not take the indifference (and sometimes defensiveness) personally because I really feel that he loves me as much as I love him. He's just really dysfunctional about the way he expresses it.

      IF you really care about this guy, I say go with your instinct. Sometimes people say things they don't mean. You should be able to sense how he feels based on his actions more than his words. What does your gut tell you?

      If you aren't sure about this guy yourself, then the answer is easy. Why deal with his drama when there are plenty of other fish in the sea? I mean... that's the logical answer. But love isn't logical!

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    9. Also.. maybe some more about my experience can help you...

      The guy I'm "dating" seems to suffer from generalized anxiety. He is unreasonably worried about future outcomes, and when it comes to relationships "making the same mistakes that he made in the past."

      He thinks all of his relationships are doomed to failure and he sometimes tells me that I deserve better than him. That he cares about me, and wants me to be happy and thinks I would have a better life with someone else who is normal. The first two times he told me this, I was like "OK, if that's what you want." But then he came running back both times, in a very vulnerable "please don't leave me" kind of way.

      So, now when he says things like that I just don't take it seriously.

      I know what you're thinking. Isn't that incredibly unattractive? Why do you like this guy? Why do you even bother?

      Those are excellent questions. I DON'T KNOW! I guess I'm a little bit crazy too. I adore him and, of course, there are a lot of positive things about his personality. I just wish sometimes he would chill out, relax and let himself be happy. But, on the other hand, he's weirdness and anxiousness is part of what makes him unique and interesting.

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    10. The Dude is a certified A-hole. Cut off contact STAT.

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    11. Mine or hers? Or both? :P I was compelled to respond with my story because the beginning of my relationship with my guy was pretty much EXACTLY LIKE THAT! Except the time periods were different. We dated for about a month and a half... started spending a LOT of time together. Then he said
      (out of the blue) that I was probably expecting too much and he only wanted to be FWB. I said no.. in that case no sex. We were "friends" for about a month. During that time there was an akward situation where he turned me down for sex (because, presumably, it would carry too much significance.) But he still wanted to hang out more and more, and finally we start having (amazingly passionate) sex again. And since then we've been together almost non stop. We do pretty much everything together, and we stay at each others' places about 4 nights a week. We know all each other's friends, and they've slowly grown to treat us as a couple... the rest of the story you can read in the description above. In summary, he seems to be really into me, he's just really weird...
      So, my advice to Ema is... this guy could have a personality or anxiety disorder that makes him act in strange ways... that will probably never change.. is he worth putting up with that?
      In my case, I think it is. I also didn't mention that I was friends with this guy about 6 months before we started dating ... so he was already someone kind of important to me. If someone I didn't know treated me the way he did I probably wouldn't have been so patient.

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    12. I don't know if he has some anxiety disorder, but it is possible. I know he doesn't do well with crowds.

      I also get the impression that he was pretty nerdy when he was little, then he enlisted and that transformed him making him much more attractive to the ladies, which in turn caused a "candy store" mentality.

      And, he had a bad experience with an ex-finance which I know is causing issues that I am unaware of that are in play.

      But, I'm pretty sure he is crazy. Is he worth it? Well, he'd have to stick around long enough for me to figure that out, now wouldn't he =P

      I do know I'm perfect for him, but I'm not sure he is perfect for me.

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    13. Ick. This is gross. My love, have some self respect. Doll yourself up and sit alone at a bar or coffee shop every evening for a week. You will soon be cured.

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    14. I think I have exercised as much "self respect" as any woman in my position could possible do.

      I left, and cut him off, as soon as he "urged" me to leave him. When he reached out this last time, I ignored him.

      However, I am not an attractive woman and have a really hard time getting the interest of *any* guy, regardless of their quality.

      I have spent the past 5 years dedicating myself to improving my appearance. I have managed to lose 115 pounds. I still have 15 to go. I'm currently a size 8 but I am still very fat. I finally realized that my body is always going to be stocky, big butted, and larged hipped. I do all the logical things to improve my appearance. Just at the beginning of this year, I started investing in laser hair removal for my whole body.

      The fact of the matter is, there are always going to be prettier girls and uglier girls and I just happen to be on the lower end of the spectrum. It seems that no matter how much time, money, or effort I put into my appearance, I can't manage to get to a point where any guys are interested.

      So, you can tell me to have some self respect, but when I'm faced with a lifetime of loneliness or possibly getting laid - I'm inclined to want to get laid. My pride doesn't keep me warm for a few hours at night.

      Heck, I just joined up on match.com and for my first week I netted a total of 0 messages. Yay, go me! I think that is some type of record for a woman.

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    15. Got to jet to the grocery store - which I'm all dolled up for in my dress, heals, and make-up. So, you see, I am trying. =)

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    16. Hmm.. so sounds like you're not even sure if you like this guy then? In that case... definitely let him go.

      Sounds like you are doing a pretty good job in the appearance-improving department. You can't be that overweight at size 8! (at least if you're talking about American sizes!)

      The next most important thing, according to Andrew, is hair - and I have to agree. It's also a relatively easy way to transform yourself! Invest in professional quality blow dryer, brushes and flat iron. Go to a salon and have your hair professional done a few times to learn how to use the tools well. (Hair dressers love to explain their techniques!)

      Make sure that your hair is down and lustrous looking in all your match.com pics. Makes a huge difference for online dating, I think!

      Here's Andrew's post about hair:
      http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2012/03/importance-of-hair.html

      Good luck with everything!

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    17. Thoses previous relationships can be destructive. I dated one women after multiple rejections (including 3 I proposed to), and while we didn't have the drama (I saw no reason to tell her I wasn't good enough for her, she could realize that for herself), she broke up with me. A couple of weeks later she showed up with new boyfriend at a contradance; and since I wanted to tell her how much I enjoyed our time together, I asked her to dance; and she cried for three hours. When I talked to the others, they had been in love with me when I proposed, but turned me down because of issues they didn't discuss with me unto then.

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    18. I agree with Sally that Andrew's advice is for sane men. It makes almost perfect sense with they guy I'm with now. But the guy before who practiced, as a couple guys I know called it, "negging" to get me to fall for him and took it too far? Forget it. They treat you horribly and then beg for you to come back after you can't take anymore. You never know with guys who are a bit insane why they are that way. Maybe they like you and don't know how to express it properly. Maybe they don't like you, but aren't opposed to having sex with a female and you're there. Maybe they only like certain aspects of your personality and can't stand others. Honestly, dealing with the sane ones is so much less stressful, unless a woman feeds off that "drama" or "spark" or whatever other name for it.

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    19. That behavior says a lot about a guy. He's obviously settling or had other mental issues. The women are just as fucked up for accepting casual hookups and then expecting anything in terms of a relationship to come out of it. Worse is staying in that kind of situation. Says a lot about a person's character for her/him to be so damn desperate. Clearly neither of them have respect for themselves or the people hey hook up w.

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  2. He's told you what he wanted from you. Why don't you believe him??

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  3. I told a guy I've been flirting with that I had had (only one) one night stand a few years ago. He's never had one before, but he's sexually-experimental. Did I blow my chances of him seeing me as gf-material?

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  4. What about those girls who swear that the sex is so good that they can make a man committed? Your article said men are driven by sex. What is your opinion?

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    1. That definitely counts for something, but I wouldn't bet on it because (a) you never know how accurate your self-perception is, e.g. regarding you skills in bed, and (b) performance in bed counts less than some other factors when it comes to getting a guy to commit

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    2. Honestly, if you can a man to commit his time, energy and resources in exchange for nothing but sex, two scenarios play out here :

      - he sees you no better as a prostitute and will likely treat you like one
      - he sees you as a worse option than a prostitute since he can always walk away from a prostitute with no repercussions and at least a prostitute is "professional" and probably really good at what she does.

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    3. @ anon

      Not always so.... They will also commit to a girl whom they percieve as way higher smv. Like a hot 8.5-10 can gut away with sluttery (as per roissy) . I know a hot model that has no trouble getting bfs this way. Cool guys too. They dont last long though

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    4. Yes, but in the case you described, the guy is getting the "prestige" of a hot woman IN ADDITION to the sex. I disagree about not lasting long though. Confident high values men with options won't put up with a hot woman's nonsense for long. The wimpy ones would happily do so, accepting that this the the price they have to pay for "hotness". These are the ones who end up being dumped by the hot women in the end.

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  5. I have seen mentioned several times that a woman's worth is diminished with the increase of sexual partners she has had. I agree with this. But do we think there is an actual "sweet spot" to be? Because I am a bisexual female I feel that I want to be a good wife someday and I am attracted to females that think the same. Maybe that gives me a little advantage in insight.

    In my opinion, for a woman in her late twenties (What I consider prime marriage age) around 3-5 partners seems like the best place to be. By then you may have tried a couple LTR, maybe some casual flings, but 3-5 seems great for around 10 years of being sexually active. I feel a woman that age that is a virgin or only has had 1 or 2 partners is a bit.. too conservative, and more than 5 is pushing it towards the slut scale.

    I have made an effort to be sexually open, exploring and learning when in safe/secure situations, and feel confident with my sexuality while being very selective and resisting the attempts of many men. I believe this to be for my benefit, my future life partner's, and my future children's (because I stay clean, healthy, and pregnancy-free, for their sake too).

    So does the best place to be for a woman start at 0 sexual partners or do you think I am right in saying that 3-5 may be a "sweet spot"?

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    1. My question is, how is the world is your partner going to know how many partners you have? This is one of those don't ask and don't tell topics.

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    2. Thanks Andrew, so it is exactly as I thought haha. Also to share this with you, I was a virgin until I was 21. I took it slow and did a lot of sexual play with my then boyfriend so when I decided it was time I was FULLY ready (though it still hurt..). I had to beg and convince HIM to do it! His reasoning was that he thought whoever takes your virginity you think they will be with you forever so he had hesitations (he was not a virgin). I thought he would make a great "first" and not necessarily my last.

      But my 2nd sexual partner also said the same thing, he took his first girlfriend's virginity and she was psycho obsessed over him. So that is one thing that I think also moves the ideal to not start at 0 but at 3. The other is that I've heard of couples who are young, waited til marriage, and then as they age realize they need to experience more than one person and they get divorced or something.

      So I am still sticking with 3-5, but you saying 2-6 makes sense.

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    3. I don't think more than 5 is pushing it towards the slut scale, I have been with more than five men (less than 100 and I certainly would not classify myself as a slut. Sometimes you make genuine mistakes with men. For example, I slept with a guy that I really liked after he made me his girlfriend..two month later and all of a sudden things were too serious for him even though it was him that had rushed ME into the relationship. I was dumb but certainly would not have had sex with him if I knew he was going to eventually behave that way. I don't intend now on sleeping with anyone else until I meet the guy I want to marry but sometimes there is just no telling someone's agenda but either way I would like to think that I have now learned.

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    4. lol I mean less than 10 lmao!!!

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    5. A number that high (<100) would make one Slut, Ph.D. :D

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  6. Help a girl out here..

    I agree with what Andrew has written here. Most women in FWB regardless of what they tell themselves get attached in some way and want it to turn into something more.

    What I'm confused about is what exactly is dating and how is it different to FWB?

    By way of background, I'm a 35 yo single girl from Australia and have spent much of the last 18 months flitting between living in Australia & the US. I'm about to make a permanent move to the US (to a big east coast city).

    Australia lacks a proper dating culture and there are subtle but noticeable cultural differences when dating in another country. As such these might sound like silly questions but I am genuinely confused with the terminology at play here.

    While in the US, I've dated a couple of American men. At least I think I have.

    He and I go out & do something just the two of us (dinner, movie, drinks, dancing etc). Usually once or twice a week. There's occasional, almost daily light hearted texting in between (I always take his lead here).

    If there's definite chemistry & I'm super attracted to the guy, it usually turns physical after a handful of dates. All fine. It normally ends organically because I often have to come back to Australia for extended stints.

    This isn't FWB is it?

    It's more like casual dating, yeah?

    There's at least some level of (probably non-exclusive) commitment on his part happening here, which I think lacks considerably in an FWB scenario.

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    1. A man's definition of the three terms:

      Casual dating = Spending time together to determine whether or not to enter into a committed relationship. This may or may not be sexual.

      Friends with Benefits = Having sex together regularly with the acknowledgement of both parties that the sexual relationship will not turn into a romantic one.

      Sometimes Americans will say "I am dating [other person]" and mean that they are in a relationship with that person. In this sense, it means that both parties have agreed not to see other people until one or the other has "terminated" the agreement.

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    2. Cheers for the info Andrew. It's very helpful.

      In the case you describe, seems in America saying 'I am dating Xperson' can also be used interchangeably with 'boy/girlfriend'.

      Have you tackled a post about dating from different countries or cultures on this blog before? I'd be interested to read it. Reckon I could write a book about it.

      Big fan of all this. I enjoy what you write. It's useful too. Keep it coming!

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    3. The "getting attached" thing can happen in reverse too! I have a guy friend who was relegated to FWB status by the woman he's dating. He even moved to be closer to her... but she says she doesn't want anything serious. She's a career woman who travels a lot, makes good money, has 2 young kids. Says she "doesn't have time" for a boyfriend. But I think the truth is that he's not good enough for her.. He's a kind of nomad, does odd jobs, makes not so much money but is good looking. So... perfect FB material :P
      He could easily get sex somewhere else, and talks about needing to meet other women, but he keeps getting drawn back to her. So.. seems men get emotionally attached sometimes in these situations, too.

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    4. @ Sarah: "dating" and "boyfriend/girlfriend" aren't precisely interchangeable. Yes, you are dating your boyfriend. But you can be dating a guy who is not your boyfriend yet (or maybe ever). If both of you have committed to be dating each other and no one else, then you are BF/GF (absent cheating, of course).

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  7. Can you ever go back if you realise you want it to eventually be more? I made this mistake. So I cut him out of my life. I think, from what I've read here, that if he decides he wants me, he'll leap tall buildings to be with me. I just wanted to know if a guy who had casual sex with a girl could ever view her as something more.

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    1. Andrew (not signed in)April 4, 2013 at 5:13 PM

      It's almost impossible. The first step, as you guessed, is restoring some of your value in his eyes by cutting him off and moving on. Then you just need to wait. If he misses or wants you, he'll resurface. Don't hold your breath though...

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    2. I think if a man sees you as relationship material he will not want FWB. He will want a proper relationship which is sexually and emotionally exclusive. The fact that he didn't ask for one or insists on one speaks volumes about his feelings towards you. It is like an unpaid intern job. If you were really that good and the company really wanted you they would hire you on the spot - you won't have to offer your services free as an unpaid intern in order to entice the company. If the company bites, they are only doing so because no one would turn down services with "market value" provided free. The company will also not think much of your services if you don't value your own services to the point that you are wikking to provide it for free. The company will rightly assume that you need them more than they need you.

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    3. Sorry I mean willing not wikking

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    4. Cutting him off will be seen as "My new lover is hotter"; there is no future except friendship (I know, I've been there, and even though I later ofund out she was in love with me, I have no desire to go back.)

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    5. In response to what Dale said... if you really want the guy.. the method is to "let him admire you from afar"... don't totally cut him off, still see him occasionally while you're being fun and fabulous in social situations. Be a bit flirty to show him you're interested, but don't spend much time alone with him, and definitely don't have any sexual relationship with him. If he tries to make a move on you, tell him you have feelings for him and don't want to be confused. Say you want to be "just friends" (we all know it's BS but say it anyway hah!) Continue to let him see how fun and fabulous you are.. and see if he comes around. I say give it 6 to 8 weeks. If not, stop wasting your time and seriously move on.

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  8. I’d like to ask you a question about friends with benefits – from the point of view of a girl who wants one. I realise this isn’t perhaps in the spirit of your blog, but I am pretty young (still in college). The thing I don’t get is why guys sometimes turn down a fwb relationship even when it’s offered to them. For example, a recurring pattern for me and many of my friends is that we’ll hook up with a guy a few times, and often we make it quite clear that we are up for casual sex but they just seem to lose interest. Many of your posts suggest that guys will never turn down easy sex, but this is not what I have observed.

    I really don’t understand why this is – in terms of attractiveness we’re all decent, and obviously the guys were attracted enough in the first place. I would not say that most of these guys are out of our league. As regards experience in the bedroom, I reckon we’re pretty normal.

    Could you shed any light on this? What makes guys turn down a fwb relationship? Do you have any pointers for how to go about getting (and keeping) a fuck buddy? Maybe it's different when you're in college, but it's a lot harder than one might think.

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    1. Don't do it hon. You are so young. Believe me, out of my four friends who did fwbs, guess how many regret it? 4. It's messy and why not wait for someone who cares. And they always, always, always end badly. My friends fwb turned manipulative and shes so attached she can't leave him.

      In response to your question, there are some men who don't want to be involved in fwbs. Not all men pounce at the opportunity for sex. They aren't as emotional but they have feelings. Funny, I asked two of my male friends today about when they lost their v-cards, they both said they regretted. I said "what?! your guys!" and they said they wish they had done with someone they cared about. And guys have reasons to not sleep with a girl, and its not always based on beauty.

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    2. Guys want to feel the ting of the hunt.....and guys guage a lot of the value they place in a woman on how much they have to invest in her to fuck her. So if you're giving away the store for cheap, they don't value it. That's why it is so important to make men wait. Making men wait does two things.

      1.) says you don't fuck a lot of guys.

      2.) places value (because a guy has to work for it) on having sex with you.

      Those two points are what a guy weighs when he is thinking commitment. Along with the basic question of "is she hot?" and "would my buddies be proud of me for screwing this?"

      You can't make a guy wait long enough.

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    3. From my experience, if a guy turns down casual sex with you but is attracted, several possibilities :
      - he is not available because he is dating someone else and he is principled
      - he is not ready for a relationship (because of other priorities) and he does not want to simply use you because he is principled
      - he wants a relationship with you but is put off by the fact that you are acting sluttish by wanting just casual sex.

      Contrary to popular belief and what the media spews out, there ARE men who are principled and who do not think or act on account of their private parts. I have found that A LOT of men are not sex fiends and can and do control their urges a lot better than what they are given credit for.

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    4. He has already had his "fix" from you and would like to hunt and/or bone some other girl. Either that or he just had way better options or thinks he does at least.

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    5. Or is looking for a elationship, which you've told him you don't want. An FWB is not something a potential girlfriend wants to hear about.

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    6. Probably because they are in college and they don't need FWB. They can bang drunk college chicks whenever they want :P Try finding a dude who's working 9 to 5 and doesn't have time or energy to go to college parties every night. He'll probably be down.

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  9. The man crux or difference between what happens to men and women after sex is hormonal. Which means, unfortunately, that if you're having sex outside committed relationships, you will have to stop. Why? Because past a certain age, casual sex is like recreational heroin -- it doesn't stay recreational for long.

    That's due in part to this thing called oxytocin -- a bonding hormone that is released when a woman a) nurses her baby and b) has an orgasm -- that will totally mess up your casual-sex game. It's why you can be fuck-buddying with some dude who isn't even all that great and the next thing you know, you're totally strung out on him. And you have no idea how it happened. Oxytocin, that's how it happened. And since nature can't discriminate between marriage material and some dude you met at the local happy hour, you're going to have to start being way more selective than you are right now.

    So when you're strung out on some guy and can't figure out why you're obsessing...

    Think Oxytocin.

    A lot of this stuff is basic biology.

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    Replies
    1. On the oxytocin note, they said (I don't know if its a myth, I am a neuroscience major and this can often fall under the category of psychobabble), oxytocin release is in the male body for 48 hours post-sex, verse much longer for women.

      Delete
    2. " a bonding hormone that is released when a has an orgasm "
      -Except women can masturbate and achieve orgasm and do not need to bond with themselves.

      Delete
    3. Does this mean if a guy doesn't want a girl to get attached he can just make sure that she never orgasms?

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    4. It's different than masturbating. You sound stupid.

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    5. Not sure about oxytocin but women "bond" with men during sex because the act of sex (particularly with a stranger) places them in a very physically vulnerable position (potentially to be attacked) so in order for the act to take place at all, a woman has to place her "trust" in the man and this requires some emotional bonding with the man. The man also places himself in a physically vulnerable position but with his strength and size advantage, is able to enter the act without as much "trust" in the woman he is having sex with - hence a higher level of detachment.
      Think I talking bullshit ? Well try asking a woman if she has ever bonded with men she has had sex with, if they are shorter and smaller in statue than herself.

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    6. just took a test on this. supposedly oxytocin and AVP (arginine vasopressin--the male version, basically) are released in women and men respectively at the time of sexual arousal. AVP returns to baseline levels at orgasm, whereas oxytocin stays elevated until 30 min post orgasm and then begins to decline. they are both bonding related chemicals, that cause an increase in trust/security.

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    7. Yup - the the post above is exactly right. This has a lot to do with why women love to cuddle post sex. It's the bonding.....

      Where a man returns to baseline after orgasm and also has a dopamine fall off and gets tired and passes out.

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    8. Men who are in love like to cuddle after sex too. Why's that?

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    9. Sally, could send you a 20 page study guide for my test that would explain attachment bonding and caregiving systems but i'm guessing you don't want to go through that.

      Delete
    10. yes i do! sallyatiemadrid at gmail.com! send please! (you don't know how much time I have on my hands haha)

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  10. Hi! I guess my question is why was I put into the friends with benefits category? Is it because there is something wrong with me? I was friends with benefits with a guy for over 5 months. The 6th month I decided to cut off the sex and just be friends. We stayed friends, he contacted me daily, but never initiated seeing me. I was expecting because we texted everyday even though the sex has stopped that maybe he had feelings for me, and would ask me to see a movie or something. But he didn't. We just continued to text everyday to no avail. He took me out once, months ago and we linked arms. We never went out again. He tells me everything, he asks my opinion on things, and it seems he likes me, but I know he doesn't because otherwise he would make plans to see me. My friend called him pretending to be a girl from his class and asked him if he wanted to grab lunch and he accepted. At first I thought maybe he was socially shy but no I see he can go out if he really wanted to. So why is it so hard for him to ask me for simple coffee or a drink? It really depresses me, it makes me feel like something is wrong with me. I think I am pretty, dress well, smart, funny. I feel that I am his back pocket girl. Like I will never be his girlfriend or anything serious. It shouldn't take 6 months for us to progress. I feel like if it hasn't happend at this point, it won't ever happen. Why doesn't he like me if he wants to hear from me everyday? why am I still in the friends with benefits zone? I don't understand it.

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    Replies
    1. Were you officially "friends with benefits" - in that you made an agreement that you were friends with benefits and would never be anything more?
      Or do you mean you were dating and it didn't progress to a girlfriend-boyfriend relationship, so you cut it off?

      Anyway... i suggest you cut it out with the tricks. He's probably be really pissed off if he knew you had people fake calling him. And it's dishonest and immature. as i see it you have three options:

      1. Tell him how you feel. It's very likely you will get rejected, but you will be able to move on more easily with some closure.
      2. Stop texting him. Cut him out of your life. Move on, but without closure. This is hard to do, but is the non-confrontational option.
      3. Keep the status quo. Keep texing him, playing games and wondering what his motives are, making yourself anxious and miserable.

      A few details that could help to evaluate your situation: How old are you guys? How long has it been since you stopped having sex? Did he agree easily to the no-sex just-friends proposal? When is the last time you saw him in person?

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    2. Thanks for responding!
      He is 22 and I am 20. It has been a month since we've had sex. I didn't tell him I was cutting off the sex, I just did it. And he never brought it up. The last time we saw eachother in person was when we had sex. He knows I have feelings for him because I told him at our 3 month mark and he bluntly said he never liked me in that way. We actually didn't talk for weeks after that, but I texted him one day and somehow we got back into what we were doing. I have two theories with him. 1. He considers me a really good friend and that's why he maintains communication but even good friends hang out in person (we weren't even that great of friends before this, we we worked ttogether) 2. I am his back pocket girl, the girl he texts because he wants attention or because he is bored and isn't talking to any other girl. But he is a good looking guy, I highly doubt he hasn't met any other girl aside from myself within the last few months. And he told me in the beginning he isn't looking to be anything more than friendship. I agreed thinking I could change is mind. The day I told him how I felt and I was crying. I asked what he didn't like about me and why couldn't take this further and he said he wasn't looking to date anyone right now. And he said, there is always a chance somewhere down the line. But I never took that to heart because I know if he likes me, he would know by now. And that "somewhere down the line" is likely never. But everytime I want to slow down contact, he will text me once and I don't respond and he will text me again a few hours later. I feel as if "friends" don't keep in contact as much as we do. I don't even text my girlfriends this much!

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    3. Hmm that situation sucks. You definitely need to cut him off (Andrew has a few posts on the benefits of doing this - whether you want him back or not.)

      What you can do is... stop texting him. He will almost definitely ask you why, and then you can tell him that you don't think it's healthy for you to be talking to him so much. That you need room for other people in your life.

      Then he'll say... What do you mean?

      And you say... It's nothing personal, it's just that you told me you don't want anything with me. I take that to mean I should see other people. Texting with you keeps you on my mind. I need to move on. I hope you understand.

      Then he'll say some BS about being friends. And then you say: It's too late for us to be friends, I'm sorry.

      Then get on OK cupid and set up 10 dates for the next two weeks to heighten your self esteem :) In the meantime, also go to any party you get invited to and join some clubs. You'll forget about him in no time.

      But, for good measure, make sure to put lots of pictures of yourself having fun on Facebook! :P

      Absolutely do not communicate with him unless he expresses willingness to change his stance about your relationship.

      My 2 cents!

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    4. Oh and about age -- you're so young! Even more reason to forget this dude! The world is your oyster!

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    5. You were put in the friends with benefits catagorey because you're not hot enough. Read here:

      http://www.rooshv.com/the-secret-to-landing-a-man


      Any possible problem a girl has with a guy is because she’s not hot enough for him. It’s as simple as that. I don’t care how mentally incapacitated a woman is, but if a man feels that she is much hotter than him, that she is “out of his league,” he will pursue her with everything he’s got and want to wife her up. If a Russian 9 wanted to date you but didn’t speak any English, I bet you’d speak your first Russian sentence in a week. Any possible complaints a guy has about a girl’s personality or character magically evaporates if he sees her as hot.

      When a man asks a question about how to get a girl, he already lost her. When a woman asks a questions about how to get a guy, she’s not hot enough. Any questions?

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    6. Interesting theory. I have a question: are you male or female?

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    7. 6:52 are you Roosh V himself?! I love you Roosh!

      Delete
    8. The problem with this is that you've lost control of the situation, not that you had sex with him or "aren't hot enough". Start doing things on YOUR terms.

      Slowly taper off meaningful communication (unless you're bored or are actually interested in the conversation) and start putting him in your beta orbiter cycle both mentally and with your actions (as a 20 year old girl, you must have beta orbiters!). Treat him like that creepy guy you met once at a party who won't stop messaging you. I have to partially disagree with Sally. I wouldn't do a hard cut-off and I certainly wouldn't offer up all this information about why you're doing it which is just going to make you look bitter and externalize your feelings (or worse, it will give him an opportunity to bullshit you back into his fuck buddy cycle). If he demands answers, then maybe say something vague but don't put effort into this elaborate explanation, because who cares, it's not to your benefit!

      You are 20 god damn years old, you can have almost any guy you want, haha!

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    9. My opinion on this:
      I agree with Roosh (as usual!). But, saying "lower" your standards sounds negative. I would say "reevaluate" your standards.

      What's more attractive in a future mate (from a female perspective) -- looks or someone who opens up to you and you feel connected to? I feel like a lot of women start obsessing over a guy that they only know superficially and then slept with. Sleeping with a guy does not make you important to him! Spending time together and getting to know each other does.

      Usually woman don't just fall in love with a guy for no reason. They are responding to attention and signals of interest they think they are getting from the guy. But women often mistake "I want to have sex with you in the near term" signals with "I would be interested in dating you" signals.

      If a guy is really interested he will invest his most valuable asset in you: his time.

      In the three significant relationships of my life, I always felt an emotional, "special friend" kind of bond with the person before we got to the sex stage. We spent lots of time together, talked about personal things.. had some kind of connection. The guys that let me get to this level with them, admittedly, were not the hottest guys who have ever hit on me.

      That's not that I think women should necessarily wait a certain amount of time before having sex. You should do it when it feels right, but you should have the sense that the guy has some emotions for you. If you're not sure if he's into you before sex, then you won't be sure after (and chances are he's not).

      If a guy really likes you (and considers you to be way hotter than him), you can sleep with him on the first date and it won't matter. He will still want to marry you.

      If there's a reason to wait, it could be to build up your own sexual attraction to the guy, whom you might not have considered that irresistible until you got to know him.. It's also a way to filter out guys who are willing to bang you but aren't really interested in you as a person.

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    10. @Anonymous 9:07. If she doesn't tell him why she's doing it, he won't stop contacting her. And she will continue to be tempted to respond. My suggestion on how to explain her change in behavior is pretty polite and mature. I think he would respect that. To me, it's not bitter at all. But if he takes it that way -- who cares? It's his problem.

      She's already devoted more than 6 months to this guy, she needs to move on completely. He had his chance. No point in staying in contact with him at all. Here's Andrew's post about the importance of silence after a break up: http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2013/02/the-importance-of-silence-after-break-up.html

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    11. I do not necessarily like the comment about "not being hot enough." That statement means that men are very superficial and the only determining factor of a relationship is based on appearence. Which I think is stupid because we will eventually all get old and shribled up and then what do we have left of the one we love? Their character, common interests, and chemistry you have together. I know I am only 20, and there are alot of fish in the sea, but there are several facotrs I liked about him beyond his appearance. The interesting thing is that he is not an "alpha" guy. He is a good looking guy but he is on the nerdy side. But I liked that about him because all of my past boyfriends were "alpha" males. My only theory as to why he doesn't want to date me could be because I am a bigger girl, not fat. No body will look at me on the streets and say whelp! That girl is fat. But I am not skinny and he already told me that was a factor that played into it. I work out everyday, maybe I could start to tone up more. But now I am starting to wonder if weight was "a factor" or "the factor" That's why I feel he hasn't pushed me to the side already because he might see some potential if I were to get into shape. My ex always used to tell me if I really worked on my body I would be a (9) once I lost 20 lbs. He came crawling back for months and I rejected him. I guess I instinctively know the issue, and it is because of my body. But it is stupid for a guy to reject a girl with a pretty face and great chemistry simply because I don't have the body of zoe saldana.

      Delete
    12. You're way over thinking this thing. You gave away the milk before he had to buy the cow. You're wasting your time and your sapping your emtions. He doesn't want you. Truth hurts. You need to move on and stop allowing some guy to use you for sex. That's what he is doing.

      Delete
    13. Well, college age guys tend to be pretty immature and have no idea what they want out of romantic relationships.
      I remember being in college, and there with this guy who always was always asking me to hang out and seemed to be into really me. Finally one day we watched a movie together and made out. Afterwards we were both so shy about it that we ended up hardly talking after that. OK.. we were like 18 and 19. But... what I'm saying is.. right now is the time to meet lots of people, date different people, have fun, learn about yourself and grow from it. I wouldn't take too personally the way one immature guy treats you. It's pretty much the norm at this stage of life. If you really want a seriously relationship, you'd probably need to go for someone older.. in at least their mid-20s. Or find someone with more "traditional" values. Most guys in early 20s don't want relationships... it's not you it's them!

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    14. I know my worth. Physcial attractiveness is just as important as emotional. Because I am a little bigger I should lower my physical expectations of a guy? I am not looking for a guy better than me (which I have seen what people would call a girl that is maybe a 5 or 6 with a guy that is an 8 or 9.) I am just looking for someone I personally find attractive and that will match me. I should not go from dating an 8 guy to dating a 5. That is bringing down my value, and saying "well, I should just stick to whatever comes my way" This guy is an 8 guy, facially I have heard I am also an 8 or 9 girl. Because of my body that drops me down to a 7. This guy enjoyed having sex with me although I am heavier than him. He continued to contact me knowing there were several points at which we could have called it quits. But he continued to share with me his personal details, contact me regularly,etc. So the fact that he does not want to date me means he is looking for something that is also beyond his league. He has never had a girlfriend before and I believe it is because he keeps turning down great girls that are not "good enough" for him. The one girl he actually liked enough to call her his girlfriend dumped him for another guy and facially she was pretty but her body was great. How I look at it is like this: he is in my league. Actually my ex is better looking than him but his is essentially in my league, and the girls he wants are not in his league. He wants 9's or 10's. If he lowered HIS standards, we would be a match. I am not going to lower my standards because it is not necessary. I know the type of guys I can pull and one bad egg wont cause me to lower my standards. Regardless, I am not one that bases my ideal guy based on appearance, it is the full package, personality, education, apperance, character

      Delete
    15. Sorry, that last one was meant to be attached to my first comment. But I agree! I feel much better, I am going to go out and date other guys again! This was just the first time I've experienced a guy not wanting more from me. But thanks for the advice!

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    16. I guess you are replying to the Roosh V thing? If you read my post immediately after it I talked about "lowering" standards vs "reevaluating" standards.

      Roosh V is a blogger that writes for shock value. He generally makes good points but he uses language that aims to ruffle people's feathers. When he says "not hot enough" I don't think it refers to only appearance. It means - "he's just not that into you." The "full package" is what makes you "hot" or, in other words, attractive to the guy.

      Delete
    17. @Jenna 10:37am

      Whatever the case may be you should just let this go. He may very well be in your league or below but if he doesn't want you all that doesn't matter. If he perceives you as less than what he can get, let that be his problem not yours. He will learn soon enough if he as the goods to pull 9s and 10s.

      Walk away and let him deal with the consequences of his actions.

      Delete
    18. You're 20 years old, probably in good shape, and at the prime of your beauty. Don't waste it on a guy that doesn't want you. There are a million men out there that would kill to sleep with a decent looking 20 year old. Your biggest asset is your youth. Take advantage of it and go out and find someone that wants you. Guys your age have no idea how to play the dating market. Take advantage of that too. The next 7 years you are in the power position to find a decent man....don't wast it. Because come 28, 29...and then the 30's you will not have a 1/4 of the options you currently have. Get out there and play the field and find a decent guy. But ALWAYS be looking for commitment. A 20 year old or 22 year old woman should never struggle to find that. Finding a mate and getting commitment will never get any easier than it is at this point in your life. Don't let some guy waste your time.

      Delete
    19. When you cut him off, he assumed you had a new lover.

      Delete
  11. Andrew,

    I am curious if you can do a post about interracial dating? How does a white male feels about dating a girl from another race?

    From my observation, white men usually sleeps with a wide variety of women but usually make a white girl their girlfriend or wife? Is this true or is my perception false?

    As a non-white girl, does this means that the white guys that approaches me are mostly just interested in sex whereas if I was white, they would treat me differently?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I've asked Andrew a similar question before, but I get the impression he's reluctant to answer but he worries it might be interpreted the wrong way. Andrew, am I right or wrong? I don't mean to make assumptions, that's just the sense I get.

      Delete
    2. "I was white, they would treat me differently? "
      -Nope white guys pump and dump white girls too.

      Delete
    3. I am Asian, I have a family member who has married to an American white. I also have seen several people in my circle as Asian married to Whites. And their mixed blood babies are very very hot.

      Inside the Asian circle, the men and women date and break up too. Not everybody marries the first bf/gf they date.

      Delete
    4. I'm Asian and white men prefer "weird" women of my country. "Weird" means not pretty or can be ugly, black/brown skin, whatever her job is doesn't matter - even low standard job, can be housekepper. And the white men usually handsome, rich, and want to have religion as same as their women. And they end up marriage.

      Why ? I think it is because women in my country are feminine and can take care of their families so well. How the women treat the men are what men want. White men who ever comes or lives in my country like these character of women.

      This is really something in my country.

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    5. I am Anon 9:51 PM.
      Agree with the above.

      I had a university professor who was a well established scientist in his field who was tall and handsome. When his wife went to our classroom, I thought she was the housekeeper aunt to do the cleaning work. Then she began to talk in English, and I was shocked -- that a housekeeper knew English. Then I learned that she was his wife.... And the couple are in about the same age.

      Delete
    6. And the scientist was American white and his wife was Asian.

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    7. I have another Oxford graduates teacher, teaching us English instead of major course. He has a degree in computation from Oxford. He was in my school to teach us professional English with vocabularies in computing.

      And he is very tall and handsome and white and was in his 20's. He married an Asian woman from my country too. Just a normal girl, but family oriented.

      Delete
    8. I am Asian American in my late twenties, for both my LTR boyfriends I was their first Asian gf and they both went on to date Asians after me! Is that weird? I don't have an accent, I have a pretty face and curvy body, I am from a mostly white upper middle class upbringing, college educated, so I never considered myself in "inter racial" relationships. I always thought me being Asian was as normal as someone being blond, or tall, or wear glasses, etc. I never thought of it as a race/ethnicity factor but maybe there is something going on? I see the appeal of foreign women, perhaps they are more demure and traditional and have the feminine sensibilities that I think are great. But for an Asian like me, where its really just a small physical factor, what the heck is going on?

      Delete
    9. I guess you should be flattered. My first long term relationship was with a guy who, after I started dating him and was kind of attached, I learned that his previous girlfriend (of several years) was of the same origin as me. Her parents were from the same small Asian country as mine, which is pretty rare in the states. *It's obscure enough that I'm not saying the country name for fear that someone would identify me!*

      I guess part of his attraction to me had something to do with his ex. I don't think he had any conscious preference.. but I just seemed familiar and comfortable to him. (He actually dated one other girl in between the Asian ex and me... but the Asian ex was definitely the more important relationship). Anyway, we dated for two years and broke up. And now he is dating another Asian American girl! But from a different country :P

      I think it might be some combination of physical appearance and cultural factors. I've always shared with my partners interests in travel, international food, music and culture. They seemed to be into me because of my worldliness and for my somehow being exotic. So, it's not surprising they'd continue to date "exotic" women after me!

      Delete
    10. I was also going to ask Andrew to consider a post about interracial dating, because a friend’s teen daughter was having difficulties in the romance arena, with attracting male attention in her mostly white school. She would probably have an easier time at a more heterogenous public school, but her parents (a white mom, black dad) had chosen to send her to a private school.

      I suggested either changing to a more heterogenous private high school, or waiting it out until college, where the guys would be less subject to pressure from their parents & peers.

      When I asked another friend, who is the same mix of white mom/black dad, she related her own experience of briefly dating one of her best (white) guy friends growing up. Her parents were supportive of their friendship, but once things turned romantic, they made him transfer colleges, thus forcing the couple to break up.(This friend is now married to a white man.)

      So the extended family can also be a huge factor. I’m in an interracial marriage, & my husband once, in conversation with another friend, admitted that my being Asian was an easier adjustment for his family than, say, if I were black. (However, he has a “sister” who is part-Latina (who is beautiful & even in her 40s has no wrinkles!) who came to live with his family when they were teenagers, so maybe this paved the way for his family to being more open-minded.)

      It seems that there are two things at play: looks & culture. I know Asian adoptees who are essentially white in terms of culture, so hanging out with Asian Americans once they got to college took some adjustment. But I know several Asian adoptees who went on to marry Asian Americans. Then there are white friends of mine who are more comfortable in China (in terms of cultural & language fluency) than Chinese Americans, so anyone can adopt a more international/cross-cultural mindset.

      To put a positive spin on this, one’s race can act as a filter for men who are worth putting time into a relationship with you, for couples who are cross-racial/cultural.

      I don’t know if Andrew would have specific suggestions on how a woman can improve her chances of dating in an interracial environment (or avoid creepy guys who are fixated on “exotic” women).

      Delete
    11. Another note is, I don't think girls should limit their dating pools to the schools they go to.

      What if there just aren't anybody worthy in the school regardless their races.

      Go out of the pools a bit maybe then surprises would turn.

      Delete
    12. "...the white guys that approaches me are mostly just interested in sex whereas if I was white, they would treat me differently?"

      A man is a man and a woman is a woman.

      Regardless of what colour the two people are if they have similar cultural backgrounds their attitude towards dating is most likely to be similar to that of their gender within that particular culture; so a Western white/black/asian man will have similar attitudes towards dating than say a white/black/asian man born and raised in Africa. However, like most generalisations they don't apply to everyone.

      Delete
    13. Is improving your daughters dating pool really a good enough reason to switch schools? She'll have plenty of time to date after high school...

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    14. It's more of a feeling of acceptance, & ease of making friends in general, I would guess. Just another wrinkle in the whole adolescence, liking (thriving in) school, coming of age, etc experience. (I don't think the parents would be superficial enough to base a change on dating opportunities. Who knows, maybe it's just a blip that she is beyond at this point. We haven't talked in a while.)

      Interestingly, her older brother (who goes to a different school) doesn't face the same issues, because as a guy, he gets to do the asking out.

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    15. I have a fairly lengthy post about race and dating completely drafted. It isn't an easy topic to write about, so I keep revisiting it. I want to make sure I get it right before it comes out. Hang in there.

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    16. Hi Andrew, it isn't easy topic because you're not Asian and live in in Asian countries so maybe you won't really understand enough about the topic facts. But the based is same men and women relationship.

      The interesting part of this topic is about the sex part. You still can find Asian women who still keep their virginities until marriage so that's the hardest part when White men love the Asian women but the problem is the men have to wait until marriage to get sex. Even if they have potential to get married but the white men cannot accept to wait too long and the Asian women still want to wait until marriage, they will not get married. Except if the relationship is only about months then agree to get married. And the White men want to wait for long time which is very rare happen.

      Delete
    17. In respect to the school situation discussed by scribe, I feel like this is a decent point. I think that white guys, especially younger ones (high school/college aged) who live in very homogenous areas, are generally less likely to approach non-white women when in those environments. I think its just a matter of it being easier not to. I think that this is limited to high school/college environments, because in most real-world situations there is enough diversity that it doesn't matter.

      I've noticed it, though, at my private university that has a majority of upper class white students. (probably exacerbated by the fact that the greek-life based social scene is even more dominated by white students, for instance there are probably 3 non-white girls out of 40 in my pledge class) I feel like in many cases guys choose to approach an average white girl vs. a more attractive non-white girl. I am personally South Asian and while it's not like I don't get hit on or anything, I have definitely noticed that I am approached a lot more when I go out to bars in urban areas vs. when I go out to bars at my very isolated university

      this is just my observation, no idea what its like from a guys perspective

      Delete
    18. I am a white guy in my mid-30s and I can tell you that if I were to date out of my race, the woman would have to be more attractive than the typical white women I can get. I personally would never date a black girl, although I would date a non-black Hispanic (e.g., Mexican) or Asian. Of my white friends, I only know of one who ever dated a black girl, and that was only one time when he was really desperate, so that may have played a part in his decision.

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    19. By the way, I and just about everyone I know would never seriously date a white girl or Hispanic girl who ever dated a black guy. In our minds, a woman like that is unworthy of a relationship and is probably also highly promiscuous.

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    20. ??? That comment is just bizarre. Are you joking? What's wrong with dating a black guy? If you're serious and "just about everyone you know" thinks the way you do, you probably need to meet some new people. Your perceptions are seriously skewed. I hope you'll try to get to know some people of other races at some point in your life. You'll be surprised.

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    21. I'll go further than saying it's bizarre--Kurt is racist and sexist.

      Delete
    22. @Kurt

      I'm a non-white non black female and I'm just curious to know why the non-white you would potentially date would have to be "more attractive than the typical white women you can get."

      I think some of what you said sounds racist, however I appreciate your honesty.

      Delete
    23. Andrew, what's your take on Kurt's comments?

      "I am a white guy in my mid-30s and I can tell you that if I were to date out of my race, the woman would have to be more attractive than the typical white women I can get. I personally would never date a black girl, although I would date a non-black Hispanic (e.g., Mexican) or Asian. Of my white friends, I only know of one who ever dated a black girl, and that was only one time when he was really desperate, so that may have played a part in his decision."
      KurtApril 9, 2013 at 2:33 PM

      "By the way, I and just about everyone I know would never seriously date a white girl or Hispanic girl who ever dated a black guy. In our minds, a woman like that is unworthy of a relationship and is probably also highly promiscuous."

      Delete
    24. I'm a non-white woman and I think that the non-white women who bemoan how white guys don't like them/ask them out, etc, should just get OVER it. It comes across as a bit desperate and a bit of an inferiority complex. What's wrong with dating guys in your own race, or even other races? If you say "you're just not attracted" then maybe you need to just to be a little more open minded and give it a chance?

      Delete
    25. This is the original commenter...thanks Kurt for the honesty....this was what I suspected. I have no problem dating men of the same race or men of any race.

      it just that I notice things since I had been living in a predominately white population in a small college town.

      White men would sleeps with a variety of girls of all race, but a white guy would usually ends up with a white girl as his girlfriend.

      When a white guy sleeps with a nonwhite girl, she is less likely to be girlfriend material whereas a white girl is still being used, but she does have a higher chance of becoming a girlfriend.

      Delete
    26. Kurt (& other guys), I appreciate your honesty. Is it that you would feel social pressure against dating a non-white woman, hence she would have to be more attractive than an average white woman, to justify your decision to date her? Or is it that you just gravitate toward dating white women?

      In my mind, the major factors include 1) taste, 2) social/family pressure & 3) culture/background, or how well you get along with someone who may come from a different place.

      I know this is not politically correct to say, as some Asian women would blanch at discussing men who lean toward dating Asian women, but conversely, I know of Asian women who love black men, & white women who love Asian men. Many people have some sort of search image of their ideal partner. (And, Kurt, sounds like your experience is different from places I’ve lived, but I don’t associate black men with promiscuity, as I know professors, pastors, journalists & other professionals who happen to be black men.)

      As far as social pressure, it seems that depending on his family and social circle, a guy would need to feel the pull of dating a woman enough to go against whatever social norms/expectations (stated or unstated) he may face.

      When it comes to background/culture, you never know if you’ll hit it off with someone who is born in another country or otherwise looks quite different from you. One of my best friends is a guy from South Africa.

      Yes, race is a tough issue & can cause uncomfortable dynamics. Maybe this is easier for me to say because of my non-conformist tendencies. But I would advise single women: to spend time with people who you are happy being around & who like you for who you are.

      Delete
    27. I'm of Asian decent and would say I'm primarily hit on by white guys.. but I guess it's just because they are the majority. I've always lived in urban areas and never felt like I got less or more attention than my white friends. If anything my race is a great way to filter out close minded bigots, since they would never want to date me. But luckily I've always lived in places with a healthy population of open minded, well educated people who aren't so superficial.

      Delete
    28. @Scribe, I'm a non white woman and I believe the reasons why some white guys prefer white women is because they fear the loss of white privilege by dating a non white women. Even if they themselves are not racist they may encounter opposition from their friends, family and society. Also, some white guys may want children who are fully white. Yeah, I know it may sound politically incorrect, but some people, both white and non-white, want to be assured they have children who look like them. An or course, some white guys may just be more attracted to white women.

      Delete
    29. I also think that because society tends to put white people, especially good looking white people at the top of the social food chain, then unfortunately, a lot of non white girls end up measuring their validation based on attention and approval they get from white guys. It's like they don't feel attractive unless a white guy looks their way and is willing to date them. I'm non-white and have repeatedly observed this complex dynamic over the years.

      Delete
    30. @Anon April 10, 12:44
      I don't think there's anything wrong with dating guys of my own race or of other races. In fact, my ex bf of 2 years was Chinese. Generally I really don't find men of my own ethnicity (Indian), but that has nothing to do with their ethnicity. It is just because Indian men, in general, tend to have softer jawlines than I typically prefer---I just have a thing for strong cheekbones and a defined jawline. When Indian men actually do have those features, I do find them attractive, it's just not that common. And I'm not complaining about how white guys don't ask me out. It's just something I've noticed specifically at my private mostly white university, and I haven't noticed it in urban areas--an observation I think is interesting and can speak to possible social pressures.

      Delete
    31. Interesting piece claiming white men will date and marry and very PARTICULAR kinda black woman - http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/05/28/black-women-that-white-men-like/

      Delete
    32. I'm seriously not a troll, but I'm a non-white woman and I'm curious to know if anyone has heard of stormfront? They are a white nationalist online community that opposes non-whites living in countries with a majority white population and of course, interracial dating and even in some cases, even IR friendship. These people don't seem to advocate violence, and in all honesty, I get the impression that there many of them are just regular middle class folk, which is a bit disturbing, because that means that my co-workers, classmates, and people in my neighborhood quite possibly share their views. Anyways, just thought it would be worth mentioning, because before I started reading SF posts, I thought I really knew and understood race and racism, but reading what they had to say took it took my understanding to a whole new level. It confirmed a lot of what I've always suspected that many white people think and believe.

      Delete
    33. @al91

      Yes, I agree it's social pressure, but I also think racism, sexism and superiority comes into play.

      Delete
    34. I third/fourth/fifth the suggestion that you please do a post on dating and race. Please :)

      - A non-white woman

      Delete
  12. I second the post above , I had the same thoughts regarding interracial dating when I read the post.I am surprised curious as to why you haven't made a post on that subject.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Bottom line- If you're banging someone you're not "friends"! You're f-buddies!, end of story folks.

    ReplyDelete
  14. I second the post above too. I hope to see posts regarding interracial dating also.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Men also should NOT get deluded.

    After the sexual liberation, it becomes way way easier for men to access sex and sleep around. But it still is relatively harder to get a woman is willing to have kids for him. In another word, casual sex is way easier to come by compared to real connections and good relationships for BOTH women and men.

    If a man is almost 40 and still unmarried, even if he slept around quite a bit in the past, the chances are, he just can not find any woman who wants to commit with him.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You mean he can't find a woman to commit with him who meets his standards, and isn't willing to settle. Almost anyone can find someone to commit to them if they settle.

      Delete
    2. Meh, women don't want dogs anymore than men want sluts. Both are just...gross.

      Delete
    3. I agree that anyone can find someone to settle with (as well as to have sex with). Even very sucked up person can do that as long as they lower their standards to certain levels.

      I'm a very conservative person my own. Still a strict virgin.

      What I mean is, because nowadays with the inventions of protected sex which can be separated from pregnancy and STD, men with seduction and cheating tricks on mind have less to gain.

      Sometimes the men's dark sides get exposed only after seduction/sex becomes successful. It's possible that the women initiate breaking up. In this case it seems the men have gained things from lying. But it can well be the case that the men of this kind might get successful being with women even sleeping with them for a while, but never get able to get commitment from those who he slept with. And because of protected sex separated from risks of pregnancy and STD, maybe the women in such cases don't get that much to lose. Maybe in the end the men need to stay single when very old still, or that if they decide to settle, they can NOT find women of the same league to settle with as the women he managed to cheat on having a few times of sex with.

      At least American statistics shows that across the few generations time, the percentage of people staying conservative/remaining virgins before marriage has increased by some percent.

      After the invention of sex separated from pregnancy, reproductive strategy of "spreading seeds as wide as possible" is no longer that successful. Instead reproductive strategy of men being family oriented are being rewarded.That's why the percentage has changed. Demographics have shifted too, meaning that in upper classes this trend is even more prominent.

      Delete
    4. Here is the statistics I am talking about from American Center For Diseases Control:
      Number of young people having premarital sex down, CDC reports:
      http://dailyfreepress.com/2011/03/08/number-of-adolescent-engaging-in-premarital-sex-down-cdc-reports/

      Delete
  16. Have you seen this relationship blog Andrew? http://blackgirlsareeasy.com

    I think it's great, the writer is so funny. He has a bit of a different perspective, as he advocates women being confident and going for what you want in terms of getting a relationship. Like these articles -

    http://blackgirlsareeasy.com/2011/10/why-men-dont-approach-you.html
    http://blackgirlsareeasy.com/2011/10/act-like-a-lady-think-like-a-hoe.html

    Any thoughts on that?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I like what I read of the blog just now. I see that he and I make a lot of the same points, but I haven't read enough to really get a feel for how much overlap there is. I will follow him and read more later.

      Thanks for the link.

      Delete
    2. thanx for posting that blog daphne!

      Delete
  17. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  18. I feel some men say they are in an exclusive relationship with you just to secure constant sex. If that's the case, wouldn't it be easier to keep it casual? Guys, what's your insight on this?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I second this question! How can you tell when a man sincerely wants a relationship for the right reasons or when he wants it to secure constant sex?

      Delete
    2. I'm not a guy but I've thought about this quite a bit over the past few years. Part of the reason a guy wants a relationship is always going to be to secure constant sex. What you hope is that he ALSO values you as a person and at least sees you as potentially the girl he will give up his sexual freedom for (marry you) rather than just dumping you when the next hot girl comes along.

      How do you tell if he really cares about you in addition to wanting sex or does he just want sex? Quite simple, don't sleep with him until you can tell by his actions that he really cares about you. The only foolproof form of this is no sex until marriage. Of course that is not very viable these days. Instead, wait six months, or a year, or however long it takes for him to show he loves you. Furthermore, men will often act as if they love a woman in order to bed her. But if she refuses long enough (and he values her enough to stick around) he will eventually start to love her. You can only act one way and feel another for so long. Make him act in a loving way long enough and his feelings will follow his actions. If he doesn't value her enough to stick around without sex, he'll dump her and she'll leave the relationship with her dignity intact and won't waste her time with some guy who is just using her for sex. Now if society would only return to no sex without marriage...wishful thinking.

      Delete
    3. DT
      I've thought about this over the past few years too. Every girl knows from a young age that the only way to gauge a guy’s interest is to wait for sex - so I always wondered why don't women do that?

      Then I realised that guys with options don't need to wait for sex and thus won’t. So by insisting on commitment before sex, women are automatically ruling out every guy who is a 7 or above. So the max you'll get with this strategy is a 6 – basically the guys who have no choice but to wait.

      Problem solved right? Well no, the problem is women really want to date the 7s and above, and by insisting on commitment women can’t get those guys.

      So that’s why women gamble and have sex with the hot guys and hope that they develop feelings and stick around.

      It's really the only way to get an alpha – take the gamble. No self-respecting alpha will stick around on someone else's timetable. He knows he can get another girl who's just as hot and who will put out.

      So do women want to play it safe with a 6, or gamble for an 8? I think all these blogs are testament to the fact that in practice women gamble for the 8, and then they get hurt. Then they gamble for another 8 and get hurt again, and on and on they go until they finally realize they have to take the 6/7. Same for guys I guess.

      Delete
    4. Or, you know, women might have sex with a guy instead of waiting because we like to have sex and get horny just like guys do.

      Believe it or not, "waiting to have sex" to "gauge a guys interest" is no fun for us. We much rather guys stick with hitting on girls they like rather than hitting on girls they think might get them laid.

      Yes, woman can hold out for sex longer than a man can but even we have limits. I don't want to wait more than 6 months to sleep with a guy because I'm not sure of his feelings for me. In fact, I think after 6 months, if you are still not sure of a man's feelings for you - there is your answer right there.

      I think most woman over their early 20's hump are okay sleeping with a guy without having to have him "love" her. What woman desire is that the man respects her, finds her attractive, and likes her. If the relationship ends after sex, that is okay. What women don't want is to sleep with a guy who simply saw her as a spermbag and a sexual toy for his pleasure.



      Delete
    5. I think more of the question here is how can you tell if he's in a committed relationship JUST to secure the constant sex with you. He may really care about you, respect you, find you attractive, AND yet have no intention of ever marrying you (happens a lot in younger (high school/college) relationships). I would guess to avoid this only get in relationships with men who are at a point in their lives where they are looking for marriage. If a guy expresses his interest in settling down or marriage at some point in the early stages (pre-sex) and expresses that he is dating with the intention of getting serious and settling down- then that would be the most obvious sign. He would also be the guy who is most willing to wait out sex longer if he is dating you with the idea of marrying you in the back of his mind. I am a female, so do any men out there agree with this statement? Andrew?

      Delete
    6. As a female who plays the game poorly, I would venture to simply ask him: "What are your thoughts about marriage and what are your future plans in that regards."

      Delete
    7. Anonymous 11:39
      “If a guy expresses his interest in settling down or marriage at some point in the early stages (pre-sex) and expresses that he is dating with the intention of getting serious and settling down… do any men out there agree with this statement?”

      Well no man in his right mind would say something like that in the initial stages of dating. Believe it or not many women would probably dump a guy for saying that. She would deem him needy, pushy and pathetic.

      You’ll need more skill and nuance than that to determine his intent.

      J
      “We much rather guys stick with hitting on girls they like rather than hitting on girls they thing might get them laid.”

      Well we would like that too. But – as Andrew explained in another thread – the girls we actually like are usually sleeping with guys who are taller, richer, funnier etc. hoping those guys will commit. That’s tough I hear you say - that’s life right?

      Well that’s why we have to bide our time and date girls who we deem below our league and consider them “friends with benefits”, “spermbags” etc.

      We’re hoping at some point the girls we really like will tire of failing to get the top guys and then consider us. I know you will say ‘why don’t we tire of failing to get models?’ Well we care what we want, not what you want!

      Ah the dynamics of dating are so much fun.

      Delete
    8. In my experience, if the guy considers you "a catch," it doesn't really matter when your sexual relationship begins. By "a catch" I mean, the guy has the feeling of "this woman is amazing, I can't believe I'm with her."

      If a guy considers you a catch, he will make it apparent by wanting to spend tons of time with you, doing his best to please you, and making you a part of his life (introducing you to his family and oldest friends.) Also watch out for loving looks, sincere compliments, and warm receptiveness to your affection. Even the hottest, most attractive guys will act this way for the right woman.(Of course, life stage matters. A 19-year-old behaving this way might be puppy love, but a 30-year-old won't do those things lightly.)

      If a guy really considers you a catch, he won't write you off for having sex with him "too soon." In fact, he will be amazed and thrilled that someone as hot as you is sooo into him that you couldn't wait.

      The main thing is: Don't have sex with a guy if you aren't sure if he's really into you or not. Wait til he exhibits some of the "I think you're a catch" behaviors above.

      Delete
    9. Thomas, do you know you just make yourself and all men sound like class A assholes. Women are not spermbags, toys, or objects. We are human beings with emotions just like you. By sleeping with a woman, unless you have been upfront with her that it is nothing more than sex, when you zero feelings or respect for her - well, yes, that does make you an asshole.

      Its tantamount to that "hot" girl you are waiting to date, finally going on some dates with you. She makes you think she cares about you and that you finally won the jack pot. But really, she plans to just date you for your money, has no intention of ever sleeping with you, and will dump you as soon as some richer guy or hotter guy comes along.

      For heaven sakes people, what happened to human courtesy, dignity, and grace? When did we become of people who only care about one thing and one thing only - "me"? For anyone out there who has or does treat other humans like you just described, I simply hope that one day you reap what you sow. I wish that, not so you get your just dessert, but so you can finally learn to be human and treat your fellow humans with an iota of kindness.

      Delete
    10. J
      Sorry I didn’t mean write that with the intent to sound like an asshole, rather state in a matter-of-fact manner the way things actually work. Don’t shoot the messenger here. I don’t actually do that myself anymore but regretfully I did do it when I was younger, desperate and naïve about the way women developed feelings.

      Unfortunately dating is not a meritocracy and it’s not fair. I agree that we should all be kind and respectful. However, the world is how it is and there’s not much point in complaining about it really. People ARE usually all about “me” these days whether you want to admit or not.

      Surprisingly enough a lot of women DO mess guys around financially as you just mentioned, and guys learn through painful experience how to protect themselves from it happening again. That’s one of the reasons men are wary of marriage and divorce.

      It’s the same for women – they learn how to protect themselves through the painful experience of being dumped after sex. Andrew is – laudably in my opinion – trying to illustrate how guys actually think so that young women might avoid these painful experiences and attain their goals.

      I would love if everyone treated each other better too, but we can’t change others so we just have to watch out for ourselves. Understanding is key to that.

      Delete
    11. Just because that is the way things are doesn't make it right and that doesn't mean you have to accept it. If a man or woman engages in the behavior I mentioned above - it makes them an asshole, pure and simple.

      Just because someone treats me badly doesn't mean I have to (or even should) engage in similar behavior. I have been a victim (yes victim because that is what it is) of men using me for sex even though I thought they actually cared. That doesn't mean I have decided to "screw" guys over just because some screwed me.

      Nothing will change if you don't take a stance and say, hey, this is wrong. All I'm doing is saying - "you know what, your behavior is wrong and you should stop it". I'm not going to say, "oh well, everyone does it, so it's alright, even though it is wrong."

      If everyone in the world thought that "that's just the way it is, we can't change it". We would still have slavery in America and women wouldn't be able to vote.

      Delete
    12. Anyonymous 11:39AM- Again!April 7, 2013 at 1:36 PM

      @Thomas
      In regards to your comment at 12: I've had a guy talk to me about it within the first month(I think he just trusted me and knew I wouldn't be judgemental about it- which I wasn't). Anyways, I don't see why a guy wouldn't tell the girl he is seeing that. A relationship should be 100 percent open and honest. Honesty is a very attractive quality. Those types of conversations are what bond people. If a guy is dating for marriage, he would be filtering women too by trying to see if the girl is also looking to settle down within the next few years, right?

      "You’ll need more skill and nuance than that to determine his intent." I really don't think you do. From my experience thus far, men tend to make it very obvious about what they want. If they really want you- you know it. If they want something serious- you know it. If they want marriage in the near future- they make sure it's clear to you. I've experienced that if there's a lot of guessing involved, he's not all that into you.

      So back to the original question: Is there any concrete way to know if a guy is becoming exclusive with you just to secure constant sex or if he wants more/actually sees a future with you?

      I feel like he would tell you if he wanted more or could see a future with you. But Thomas says that he would keep those thoughts to himself. If you're thinking about marrying that person, you might as well be open and honest with them. And if you're not thinking about marrying that person, then you're probably dating them more so to secure the constant sex (not entirely the reason though). no?

      Delete
    13. J... I think you're taking out anger on Thomas undeservedly. He was making an observation, not making a statement about whether it's right or not.

      Men have the right to look out for their own interests, just like women do -- I don't think any grand revolution is necessary. But, understanding a bit more about the male psyche, can help you, me and other women from misinterpreting a guy's intentions. The whole point of this blog is to give women information that can prevent them into situations where they feel used, and be more successful in finding a mate.

      Thomas never said that you should screw anyone over in spite... He was attempting to "tell it like it is" in order to help you and others avoid the people who might want to screw you over. What's wrong with that ?

      Delete
    14. But, Anonymous 11:59... you missed one part of the question: should you withhold sex until you have a conversation about "your future" and level of commitment?

      I say, not necessarily. It should be really clear if the guy is in love with you or not by the way he treats you. (It doesn't even take that much "skill and nuance!) If not, don't bang him. That simple.

      Delete
    15. I'm simply pointing out what was said.

      According to Thomas, all men are willing to screw women over for sex. Ego, I should avoid men. If all guys are okay using a female as a spermbag, then regardless of if he thinks of *me* like that or honestly loves me - I don't want to have anything to do with him.

      Quite frankly, any person (male or female) who willing and knowingly mistreats other people for their own person gain is not someone I'm interested in associating with. They are beneath my league. =P

      Delete
    16. Anyonymous 11:39AM- Again!April 7, 2013 at 1:54 PM

      Sally, I pretty much agree with you on that... Good point. Usually the conversation just tends to naturally follow..

      Delete
    17. J
      I’m not advocating that guys should behave like that nor am I defending their behavior. I’m just trying to explain the way it is and the reasoning behind it. No-one else is going to look out for our welfare so we all have to understand how the world works, and then protect ourselves.

      I didn’t say that it’s ok to treat others badly because someone else treated us badly. I just said, this is the way it is, so what are you going to do with the information?

      You said “by sleeping with a woman, unless you have been upfront with her that it is nothing more than sex, when you have zero feelings or respect for her – well, yes, that does make you an asshole”. Actually no it doesn’t. It’s when a guy lies to you, says that he sees a future with you, when he knows he won’t see you again then he’s an asshole. Unless you ask him what his intentions are then he is doing nothing wrong. You are a grown ADULT. Don’t sleep with a man if you are unsure how he feels about you which might lead to you getting hurt. It is naïve and immature to expect anything from a guy just because he is having sex with you. YOU have to take responsibility for your own sexuality and emotions. Blaming the guy is a cop-out of YOUR responsibility. If he promised you nothing, he owes you nothing.

      Look, I’m not trying to say if any of this is right or wrong, just how it is. We don’t live in a utopia so it’s incumbent on all adults to understand how things work so we can navigate it successfully. I’ve been a hurt by women before too. Several girls have slept with me a few times and then disappeared without explanation leaving me upset. Was a victim? No - I went in without communicating what the situation was so I had to take responsibility for my emotions afterwards. They never promised me anything so they owed me nothing. Now when I have casual sex I realize that’s all it is. It would be extremely naïve of women to thing casual sex is a path to a relationship. Sometimes it isn’t, but necessarily so. That’s Andrew’s point.

      Instead of getting annoyed with me for saying how things work it would be wiser to communicate with guys BEFORE you have sex, not get upset afterwards.

      I also didn’t “all guys are okay using a female as a spermbag”. I’m saying some do and it’s up to you to understand that.

      Delete
    18. J -- I think Thomas was making generalizations, and that's not what literally goes through guys' minds when they are dating below their league.

      They're not thinking "I'm gonna dump this spermbag as soon as I can find a hotter chic."

      It's more like "I'm not completely satisfied with this relationship, but I'm going to stay in it because I don't want to be lonely and sexless." Or, more likely, that he's not putting much thought into why he is in the relationship at all, only that it's meeting his physiological needs at the time being, and not thinking so much about the future. That's not to say that the guy would never marry that girl he considers below his league if no one better ever comes along... but that's pretty sad.

      Women also have similar reasons to stay in relationships they aren't totally satisfied with -- because it feels comfortable and it seems better than being alone in the short-term.

      Delete
    19. Anonymous 11:39
      On second thoughts I agree with you that communication is paramount and that it mightn’t be a bad idea to discuss life goals at the outset. Andrew could probably answer that better than I because I’m not sure what the best way of determining marriage intent at the outset is.

      Sally
      Yes – that’s what I was trying to say. Very few guys malevolently use a few girl and actually think she’s just ‘a spermbag’ (Eww btw).

      I agree with you on the timing of sex. Anytime I’ve really liked a girl, I liked her for who she was irrespective of when we had sex. I had sex with the girl I loved the most within hours of meeting her. The reason women should wait is to protect themselves emotionally. If they can handle the emotional fallout of a disappearance it’s ok to have sex early.

      Delete
    20. To clarify - I'm (probably wrongly) assuming that most woman do have conversations with guys or have enough (mis)leading actions from a guy before they sleep with him to assume he actually does care and actually does want a relationship.

      I have never once slept with a guy who has not expressed a great desire to be with me long term. And yet, several times, I have been dumped right after sex or shortly thereafter.

      I mean, woman don't *normally* spread their legs just because they are horny or because they dated a guy once or twice. Women are just not wired that way. They spread their legs when a guy triggers that "wow, I really like this guy feeling".

      That feeling usually comes along after a guy does or says certain things. "I like you a lot." "I care about you." "Let's be exclusive." "I love you." Then the sex comes.

      If a women should have a conversation to ascertain a man's true objective than it is no harder for a man to act honorably and say, "We are dating casually." Or, better yet, stop with the lovey dovey crap. A man's desire for sex does not trump a woman's desire to not have sex with someone who doesn't give a crap about her.

      Here is a thought, the next time you are about the have sex with a woman, tell her the real reason you are sleeping with her. If you refuse because you think she won't sleep with you after you tell her the truth - then you shouldn't sleep her.


      If the guy leaves after sex, did the girl still fail to do her due diligence? How much due diligence does a woman have to do before she is exonerated and the guy can be called an ass hole? Honestly, I think you are trying to blame the victim here to excuse bad behavior.

      Most men do lead women on to get sex. Most women do ask questions and no guy is going to say "yes, I'm only dating you right now because I can't date anyone hotter. You're just sex." Why? Because the guy knows he wouldn't get sex, most of the time, if he said this.

      Actually, I'm going to bow out. You don't see this behavior as wrong because you keep trying to justify it. If you don't see why this behavior is wrong, nothing I say is going to change your mind.

      And besides, this blog is to tell women how men think - not to tell men how women think.

      Delete
    21. J
      Ok, we’ll have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. I’ll just say one final comment.

      I’m just explaining how we think and how guys rationalize why their behavior is ok. Getting annoyed with me is futile. Whether you like it or not is pointless because you can’t change how guys think. It’s a lot easier to change your own behavior to protect yourself rather than changing the behaviour of others.

      I honestly hope you don’t get used for sex and dumped afterwards again.

      Delete
  19. As the cost of sex decreases, the things to gain from sex from a predator perspective decrease also.

    The trend is percentage of premartial sex is descreasing. And this is especially prominent in upper classes/higher income families. And because the things to gain from premartial sex from a predator's perspective also, the productive strategy of "spreading seeds wide" no longer competes well with the strategy of "being family oriented" for men. Thus the statistics below happens as a matter of fact. Just an evolutionary game play:

    http://dailyfreepress.com/2011/03/08/number-of-adolescent-engaging-in-premarital-sex-down-cdc-reports/

    As for the statistics for premarial sex decreases in percentages with family's income, it can be found from cdc and many other sources also.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Change of 6% in only 10 years is expressive.

    Maybe after 100 years a total take over and extinction of certain behaviors would happen.

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  21. *expressive->impressive
    Typo above

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  22. Strategy of "spreading seeds wide" no longer competes well with the strategy of "being family oriented" for men, because of the inventions of separating sex from pregnancy and doing birth control with medicines I think. Talking about evolutionary game play here.

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  23. Men and women might not be aware when they do it. They may do it out of pure instincts rather than reasoning.

    But reproductive strategies can inherit through mere instincts. Like if the parents are both sluts then the kids may be more likely. Vice versa.

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  24. Thank you Andrew!

    Very true post, ladies take note.

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  25. When you stopped having sex with him, he assumed you had a new lover. He may be staying away because he doesn't want to face the possiblility he got dumped for someone sexier; or because, since he told you he wasn't serious, he doesn't want to interfere with your new relationship.

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    1. Meant for earlier discussion.

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  26. If the man is inexperienced, he may want to seduce the woman before committing for fear that her interest is only in him as a husband, and not as a lover.

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    1. Um, most women's interest in a man *is* as a husband *as well as* a lover. Most women don't want to be screwed just for the sake of being screwed. Women like to have sex with a man who *really* cares.

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    2. " Most women don't want to be screwed just for the sake of being screwed. "
      -Maybe women should enjoy sex for the sheer pleasure of sex. Then when people have sex no one is being used as they are both benefiting from sex.

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    3. Unlike with men, the majority of the pleasure women derive from sex is from the emotional aspect, not the physical. When you take take away, it is almost impossible to enjoy sex.

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    4. The problem is after the sex, when hormones have set in. The woman starts to feel a bond with the man and therefore if a woman becomes a bit of a 'nutcase' and wonders why the guy doesn't get back to her, it's probably because of this.
      Personally, I think it might be hard for a man to actually understand this as the same things don't happen to men during sex. So next time a guy does sleep with a girl, he shouldn't be surprised if she becomes clingy. It's just natural for women. Believe me, it can be really annoying for a woman and in my opinion, the best thing to do is to not to have casual sex with a guy.

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    5. Remember Vanilla Sky? This would have been a good illustration for this post! hah!
      http://25.media.tumblr.com/e91ca29db4fd6a309c4c441394ab9f0c/tumblr_mfov5oiiBq1qhiv1to1_500.jpg

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    6. Brilliant Sally!

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  27. My understanding is that this blog is to provide ladies a male perspective on dating / relationship matters and give us an insight on how they think, why they do what they do and so forth.

    Thus ladies please stop saying what guys should or shouldn't do. There are other blogs dedicated on how men could improve. This isn't one.

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  28. I like knowing that some women who sleep with men only to use the men, for their money or taking other benefit. Win win solution without feeling.

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  29. I love it when individuals get together and share ideas.
    Great site, keep it up!

    Also visit my web site; sian

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  30. I have another request...what about young women with kids, either through a divorce or out of wedlock.

    do men sees her more as a sex thing, or possible girlfriend/wife?

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  31. Andrew, why do some men come on strong, take a girl out on lavish dates, text all day and act like a gentleman but disappear when they don't get sex after a few weeks? Why go through all that trouble, give all that attention, spend all that time and money only to disappear? If all they want is sex, why not just go after easy girls they don't have to court with as much effort?

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    1. I second this question. And in particular if you make it completely clear that you are a prude why does he think he will be the exception?..I had this happen to me when I was a freshman in college. The guy wrote pages and pages of messages to me on Facebook, wanted to drive 3 hours to come pick me up before he ever met me in person during the summer. When I got to campus he asked me to dinner and ended up taking me out almost every night during orientation. Seemed totally into it. We dated for about 5 weeks (and I refused to do anything under the pants, as I had already made clear to him) and then one day I didn't hear from him for a few days. He drops the bomb that "this is a bad time for him to have a relationship. He is too busy with classes etc". It's as if he realized I wasn't lying, I really was a prude. Filtered him right out with my prudeness :p But still I wondered why he even bothered in the first place?

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    2. Because they want to have sex with YOU. Easy girls satisfy a man's ego less, and are less attractive most of the time.

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    3. So how do you keep him interested enough to commit to being your boyfriend without allowing him to have sex with you during the dating/courtship game?

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    4. I also have question Andrew. I just met this guy and first we connected based on bussiness and short friendship. We met few times. I knew he didn't plan to look for sex from me, he didn't catch me for sex. But the situation because we were alone at his place at one night changed our mission in a bussiness.

      I seduced him but at the end refused to have a sex without saying anything to explain why. I just left him at his place. Since then he didn't want to communicate with me again. I don't understand because first it had nothing to do with sex. He came as a friend, so did I.

      How to make him want to do bussiness with me again cause I need his help.

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    5. @Luciana, I do think sometimes a guy "changes his mind" about a girl because once he gets to know her he doesn't like her so much anymore. The thrill of the chase is over and what he's left with is someone he's not crazy about. All you can do is try to be the most fabulous, fun and lovely-to-be-around version of yourself. But, it's something that's hard to control. He also has to be at a stage in his life where he wants a relationship and/or he has to be crazy about you. Why would you want to stay with someone who's not crazy about you, anyway? Not having sex with him in the beginning is a way to judge his intentions so that he doesn't string you along longer than necessary.

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    6. Thank you Andrew for your answer in regards to that question who seems to interest many women,

      I had this hapen to me a couple times.. And I realize that men will go to great lenghts to have sex with a girl they are very physically attracted to, but what I have a hard time understanding is, if they are so physically attracted and willing to put in such efforts to get sex, then when they cant get it easily, wouldnt they want to try and see if this could go beyond just the physical aspect. Meaning 1- they are very attracted, 2- we are showing resistance (which should logically result in increased desire, no?), so wouldnt that combination lead him to rethink his strategy/goal. My perspective as a girl is that a man would think, wow, this girl is not only super hot but she's also not easy: potentially girlfriend material.. Could you enlighten me??

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    7. Anonymous (April 8, 2013 at 8:46 PM): you're a cocktease. That's why he doesn't want to communicate with you again. Basically, you fucked yourself.

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    8. @ Joe, how am I a cocktease? Because I go on a cpl dates with guys and chose to withold sex for a lil bit until I can figure out if they are interested in more, for the sole reason of protecting myself from being fucked and dumped? Why am I gonna go and have sex with a guy before I even know if is interest goes beyond the physicality of things.. How would that benefit me in any way??
      Please enlighten me as you did not make any point..

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    9. Also, Joe, did you even read my question...
      I'm asking Andrew to explain why the combination of having a guy really physically attracted and witholding sex until you can figure out his intentions does not lead to increased interest.. And your answer is "because youre a cocktease" thats not even an answer to my question. You're a joke, my friend

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    10. How is "seducing him" withholding sex? lol

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    11. @Joe : "Anonymous (April 8, 2013 at 8:46 PM): you're a cocktease. That's why he doesn't want to communicate with you again. Basically, you fucked yourself."

      I teased him because I liked him much. It was spontaneous feeling and seducing, just grew from our interesting and deep conversation that night. Beside, he is hot and liked my seducing. I left him because I wasn't ready but never say this to him. I'm afraid he felt I rejected him. The truth is I liked him much and wanted his body but not that soon.

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    12. "How is "seducing him" withholding sex?"

      seducing but not having sex after seducing, just change mind

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    13. a.k.a. being a cock tease.

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    14. Men like it, don't they ? :P

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  32. yeah i am also super curious about what the last anonymous person asked...Andrew help!!

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  33. @ Anonymous 8:46 yes!! please answer this Andrew.

    I am a very attractive woman, in my 30's. Have been at clubs and even overheard men say ( well it was almost to my face ) "You are way out of my league" I hadn't even heard of the number thing men and women assign to each other!?

    I just came out of a short stint of seeing a man. He was clearly very attracted to me but felt our personalities didn't match up... i was a bit thrown off as i thought maybe i didn't build up enough emotional attraction?? i don't really know how to do this, i can play the game well ( i didn't sleep with him ) we have hung out since and he makes these comments about the types of guys i would be good with- he said "you need a man to elevate you, i am too conservative and stand offish" he said "you need a man to come and swoop you onto the dance floor and makes you feel shown off" he said "you are very pretty but my personality would annoy you over time" what's his deal? to me it's like he is trying to put up barriers for us developing something?

    i have to admit i'm so curious to sleep with him to see what it would be like. so that would be treading into the fwb territory...

    i read your posts about asking for feedback- i guess i could do that. its just so strange being rejected. I'm a 10 and he's a 6 !! i can't believe i'm even using the number scale :) hilarious.

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    1. Hey anonymous 10 dating a 6 --
      Have you seen this article?
      http://www.returnofkings.com/7738/how-to-make-a-man-fall-in-love-with-you
      So if you're a 10 on the attractiveness scale, where do you think you fall on the bitchiness scale?
      This could explain why less attractive girls are doing better than you! Sounds like this guy is saing you aen't "down to earth" enough.

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    2. Also, here's another article from that site that might give a better idea of what guys consider bitchy vs not-bitchy:
      http://www.returnofkings.com/7543/american-girls-have-no-game
      Although take it with a grain of salt.. I doubt this guy even would chase down and commit to this girl who he considers so perfect.. that's cuz he's a self-proclaimed "alpha" loser :)

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    3. Wow this whole bitchiness thing is news to me! Is that basically what it comes down to when Andrew says 'personality'?

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  34. @ Sally, fair enough re: my comment on the attractiveness scale. i had a good laugh at your comment and read the articles.

    officially, as i found out last night, i'm an 8-8.5 i had never asked anyone and was on a date last night and decided to ask the guy.

    regardless, my personality is actually quite quirky and down to earth. the tone of that post was on the "bitchy" side and after giving it some thought i'm going to find out from this guy more of what he means... i guess the bigger picture is that everyone is meant for someone and rejection is apart of the game. i'm hopeful and confident :)

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  35. @ Sally-

    re: i'm a 10 ;) he's a 6...

    ************** Andrews comment in another post******

    i think this applies to my situation...

    It's a case of "he's just not that into you." Your league is relative because all men have different taste. You might be able to attract a guy that you think is in a higher league than this guy, even though this guy doesn't seem to care that much. He thinks you are in a lower "league" even though to other men - maybe most men - you are actually out of HIS league. There isn't much you can do about it other than cutting him off and moving on to find a guy who thinks you are amazing (and working to make yourself MORE amazing in the meantime ;)).

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  36. "Because they want to have sex with YOU. Easy girls satisfy a man's ego less, and are less attractive most of the time."

    But good girls also less attractive for men. Men leave good girls for having sex with easy girls and maybe fall in love because people say sex first then love for men. Unfair.

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  37. I love your blog. Very open and honest, which is great. I have to say though that the thought that I am left with is that there is really nothing in a relationship for women. It sounds better to just stay single. Honestly, it's just too complicated.

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    Replies
    1. Exactly. And that's exactly why I have stayed away from it
      /Ann

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