Tuesday, June 11, 2013

No, You Aren't a Good Wing Woman

The other night I was out with a friend who had invited some of his coworkers to join us at the bar. A couple of these coworkers were girls. After everyone had arrived, my friend and I started looking around and talking about which girls in the bar we wanted to talk to. One of his female coworkers overheard us and immediately lit up. She jumped into the conversation: “Oh! Which one do you like? Point her out to me. I’ll go and…”

“Wait.” I said, interrupting her. I knew exactly what she was going to say. “Let me guess. You are going to walk over there and get her to talk to me, because you are ‘a great wing woman’ – right?”

The expression of surprise that broke across her face made it clear that I’d hit the nail on the head. But her enthusiasm wasn't deflated yet.

“I am a great wing woman!” she insisted. “Come on, point her out to me, I am awesome at this.”

“Haha riiiight,” I said sarcastically, “you and every other girl…”

I've had this conversation with girls dozens of times. In fact, I've never met a girl who has claimed to be anything less than "the best" or "a great" wing woman. And every time I've let them demonstrate their "skill," they've failed miserably. Unleashing my frustration at so many similarly self-deceived women, I explained this to her, then drove my point home:

“Girls seem to think that ‘being a good wing woman’ means walking up to another girl and asking her about some article of clothing she is wearing, or where she gets her hair done, and then ‘subtly’ (and by subtly I mean abruptly) transitioning into ‘hey, you have to meet my friend Andrew.’ It’s completely transparent, makes me look like I don’t have the balls to do it myself, and generally undermines any chance I would have had with her to begin with. So, I am sorry, but no, you aren't a good wing woman; and no, you cannot help.”

Enthusiasm now deflated, she turned and went to find her other coworkers.

I realize that not every girl thinks she is a “great wing woman,” but I am continually surprised at how many do, how unoriginal their approach invariably is, how vacuous their claims of greatness are, and how enthusiastic they are about the whole thing. My only guess is that, being so used to a passive role in the whole “pickup” exchange, these girls believe that the opposite task is simple, and simultaneously want to exercise some kind of agency in the process for once – in the same way that many men believe that girls "just" have to look good and show up, and would love to have a girl take the initiative from time to time. In any case, after letting a few girls try and fail at it, I've stopped humoring them.

I've actually had one good experience with a girl helping me to meet another girl. However, the “wing woman” never claimed to be good at what she did. In fact I didn't know until afterwards that her “game” was premeditated. Here is what happened:

My friend and I were part of a large group. He and I were talking to Girl A, who knew that I was attracted to her friend, Girl B. Girl B was talking to some other friends in another small group nearby. Without asking my permission or announcing her intentions, Girl A subtly leaned into Girl B’s group, and asked her a quick question. This drew her into our conversation. We shifted around naturally as Girl B joined our group, and Girl A positioned herself next to my friend, leaving me next to Girl B. We all talked in a group for a few minutes. Once I asked a direct question to the Girl B, Girl A turned to my friend and asked him a direct question also, splitting the conversation into two couples. A moment later, Girl A turned slightly to face my friend, so that Girl B and I were further isolated in a personal conversation. Girl B and I talked like this for about 15 minutes, and then I got her number. It was seamless.

It was so seamless, in fact, that I was suspicious, and I asked Girl A afterwards if she’d done all of that intentionally. She smiled knowingly, nodded, and didn't say another word about it. I was impressed.

So next time you find yourself tempted to brag about your wing-woman skills, stop yourself and re-learn the age-old lesson from Girl A: actions speak louder than words.


Related Posts
1. Don’t Talk Yourself Up
2. Don't Try to Be One of The Guys
3. No, You Can't Be "Just Friends"
4. How to Make Yourself Approachable

93 comments:

  1. Girls who claim to be a great "wing woman" are always desperate, promiscuous or both. Some of them also like to point out who's "easy", which is a desperate attempt to separate themselves from those girls. I've seen examples of this. A 40-year old single friend of mine who would point out to a guy "that girl looks easy". It is also fairly common for the woman to be interested in the guy she is fixing up, as I have observed many times. It's an extreme version of "one of the boys".

    From your story, girl A sounds so socially skilled than I almost find her attractive without seeing her.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. Geez, that is some insightful comment. A friend of mine introduced this guy to other girls a couple of times, but then ended up dating him herself. I was like "why the hell did you keep trying to introduce him to other girls when you, obviously, liked him herself?" There was no good answer to this. Yeah, it is playing "one of the boys", methinks.

      Delete
    2. I agree that this is the case sometimes. In those cases, the woman's offer to be a wing-woman is actually an attempt to see how much he wants other women in the bar - in order to see how she measures up. The first situation I described might have been one of those.

      I don't think this is what is at work all of the time, but it is a good observation.

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    3. Truth be told, a woman offers to be wing-woman to show people around her, particularly the men, what a "cool" gal she is, how she is not like other women caught up in their petty jealousie and how she is so confident that she is not threatened by other women and yes, how bold and "sassy" she is.

      Delete
  2. I agree, immediately I thought of a former friend of mine who would absolutely do this. She would also be MY "wing woman" and try to get into a conversation with guys on my behalf. She WAS desperate and a bit promiscuous, but I think that by being the "cool girl" wing woman she secretly hoped the guys she offered to help or to help me meet would be interested in her. Bad, bad move.

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    Replies
    1. That is so true. Only another woman can see through this. As per my observation just above (Anon June 14 7:31 am). Though I am curious why you say it is a bad bad move. It may or may not work and if it doesn't I don't think men are going to hold it against her or be particularly turned off by her. Men are forgiving in a way that other women are most definitely not.

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    2. Many women may suck at it but if you can find one who's good at it she can be very helpful. I had one talk me up in ways I couldn't do myself. To begin with the woman we were talking with was a bit shy and hesitant but after listening to my "wing woman" she became quite interested and decided to go out with me right after the event we were at, and it resulted in a very nice make out.

      Delete
  3. Andrew, I love your random articles like this one. They give the most interesting perspective on issues that I never though about. Just wanted to put that out there. You are absolutely right. I never found playing wing woman interesting. Though I always wonder if playing wing man works. I am pretty oblivious to pick ups by men. I generally get the really obvious date set ups or I feel like I chose the guy before he initiated.

    ps You should write an article about how men initiate. A guy once asked me for good pickup lines that men have used on me before. I honestly could only remember the really bad ones. Otherwise, I said...idk, just talk to me. I guess woman never realize how much work it takes.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I second the idea for a post on how to tell when men are trying to ask you out (apart from the obvious). Sometimes they talk about going somewhere in a way that gives me the feeling they want me to join, but if they don't ask directly I don't say anything because I never know whether they are just making conversation or not. Do men hint or is this a female thing?

      Delete
    2. They're not man enough to ask you out on a date because they don't want to risk rejection. If they ask you obliquely like that, it feels less like rejection.

      Delete
    3. Anonymous at 11:55,

      If a man goes out of his way to talk to you, or even say anything to you, when he could easily avoid doing so he is interested in you.

      Delete
    4. So should you take their hint and suggest something or just wait around for someone who has the courage to ask directly? (which isn't always the guys you might be interested in). Everyone always says you are not supposed to initiate dates as this makes the guy lose interest. How do you lower the perceived risk of rejection for the ones you would like to get to know better?

      E.g. of the type of conversation I had recently with a guy:

      Him (out of the blue, when he caught me alone): So are you going to the big party at xyz tomorrow night?
      Me: I hadn't heard about it.
      Him: [Tells me all about it and how great it will be]
      Me: That sounds fun. Are you going?
      Him: Yes I might go and see what's happening...
      Me: It sounds fun. I have a class tomorrow, but only till 9.
      Him: That'd be fine. It goes on all night.
      Me: Oh, great
      Him: We could go...
      Me: Ok!

      So who asked who out here? Did he want to go with me or did I initiate that? I'd rather a guy asks me out directly so I know where I stand.

      Delete
    5. What Joe said.

      Last anonymous, IMO it basically means: "I haven't asked you officially to be there so I have nothing to lose. It'd be nice to a) get to know you better or b) have you around just in case.

      Either/or he's keeping it casual.

      Delete
    6. @ 3:03

      He asked you, sort of. Did you go to the party?

      Delete
    7. Yes, we went together (it was a street party/event with live music etc, not a party with people he knew). Then we went for drinks. We had a nice time, but he didn't make a move. Maybe he just wanted to hang out.

      Delete
  4. The only time I ever introduced a girl to my guy friend to hook them up was when I was dared to. It didn't work. It never does. She was actually more interested with me than the guy.

    Sometimes men will ask me to go out with them and an hour before the event they would ask me to bring my gal friends. *I don't have many single gal friends* I think it's rude and I felt I was being used to meet women.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think being a "wing woman" can work as Andrew showed in his latter example.

      You just have to consider:

      a) Girl A was able to connect with Andrew's friend. Not all ladies can keep a guy interested in a conversation.

      b) Plus, she wasn't obvious about setting them up. That's the best part! If it feels natural things flow better.

      Delete
  5. Andrew this is a pointless post. Not sure your example makes sense either. I don't think a point of self improvement for women would be to help guys with bad game talk to women.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Then, what would help?

      If you are going to reject an idea so strongly, why not propose a better one.

      Delete
    2. Andrew is saying :
      1. Please don't be wing-woman without being asked
      2. Please accept it when a man says No - whether it be a romantic/sexual proposition, or an offer to help.
      3. Men generally don't want help picking up women, particularly from other women. If they feel uncomfortable getting such help from close male friends, how less inclined they are going to be with women whom they just met.
      4. Doing 3. is going to make you, as a woman, look stupid.

      Delete
  6. My theory is that 'wingwomen' feel more empowered and confident if they're in control of the social exchanges of the evening - especially when they're trying to help a female friend 'hook up' with a guy. It gives her a reason to approach, all under the guise of 'helping'.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Perhaps, if she is already happily partnered herself and feels like she wants to "help".
      Otherwise other women are competitors, including her friends. In this situation a woman only sets her friend up with chumps as payback for slights, real or imagined. More likely, to keep her friend otherwise occupied with someone else while she focuses on a man they both like. Just as likely, to make her friend appear "taken" to put off another man whom she likes, but whom she thinks is more interested in her friend.

      Delete
  7. Andrew, not sure I understand a recent tweet of yours - the one about women complaining about high heels/men complaining about being emotionally stable. Men are supposed to be the emotionally stable ones? Can you elaborate (maybe I missed your post on this?)

    Thanks!

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    Replies
    1. I don't subscribe to Tweets, but I bet he's saying that crazy women who obsess are emotionally unstable. For example, a woman who obsesses about being old and refers to herself as being an "old bitch" when she just turned 30 is emotionally unstable. Emotionally unstable women/men are people you RUN from. People like that tend to have mental health issues and probably have emotional disorders of unexplainable magnitudes. Don't sit around and waste your time with them. Run as fast and far as you can. EMOTIONALLY UNSTABLE IS NOT GOOD.

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    2. Thanks for trying to clarify but that wasn't what I was going for. The tweet says: "Complaining about how much it hurts to wear heel is like a man complaining about how much he hates being emotionally stable."

      Women look to men for stability, strength, accomplishment, power.

      Men look to women for beauty, radiance, light, openness.

      Being emotionally unstable = weakness.
      Not wearing heels = ugly.

      Complaining about either one is complaining about the very thing the opposite sex looks to you most for.

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    3. Andrew, this is ridiculous. Emotional instability is a turnoff for both genders.

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    4. Your twitter comment implies that women value emotional stability above all in men, and men value beauty above all in women.

      Delete
    5. The order of choice is as such :
      1. Beauty plus emotional stability
      2. Above average to average looks plus emotional stability
      3. Below average looks plus emotional stability tied with beauty and emotional instability
      4. Above average to average looks plus emotional instability
      5. Below average looks plus emotional instability.

      Delete
    6. Andrew doesn't seem emotionally stable in this post. Not a good job on this one! Slipping in quality, what's up w that?

      Delete
  8. I am very confused by the 9th paragraph in this post. Are you saying men would like women to take initiative from time to time, or not?

    ReplyDelete
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    1. I am saying they would LIKE it, but not that you SHOULD.

      Most women say that they would LIKE a man who does whatever you want all day long; but they wouldn't respect him, because they'd know he was a pushover and that they could do better. They'd leave him after a week.

      Men say they want women to approach, because it makes life easier for them. But in the end, they won't be able to respect themselves knowing that you had to do the work for them, and they will know in the back of their minds that if they just push through their fears of approaching, they could get a better girl. This is a bad foundation for a relationship.

      Delete
    2. thefemaleperspectiveJune 13, 2013 at 12:01 AM

      Andrew your juxtapositions give me light bulb moments every time. I never understood it when men said they'd LIKE it if a woman initiated SOMETIMES. I'd always scratch my head and go what the HELL does that even mean. Your example was good. Kudos. May I suggest maybe a future post of just juxtaposition scenarios? Women love it when men can flirt with them with an intense gaze and a smirk/grin. Something really hot about that. But the moment a guys eyes start darting I know he's nervous or not confident and I lose interest. Does the same apply for men too? Or is it ok for a woman's gaze to be a little shifty(looking up/down/side out of shyness). Or do men like the whole coy eyes technique? And what about tone of voice?

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    3. I think men much prefer if women, rather than do the approaching, give off megawatt no, gigawatt signals that they want to be approached and that they won't say No. Or else approach in a very very subtle, oblique (read feminine) way - ie sliding up to a man, coming up close to him and saying something along the lines of "Why is someone as charming as you here all alone" ?

      Above all else I think men want to be given a lot of "warning" before any possible approach takes place - ie the come hither signals. If he is interested he will then approach. If he is not he has the opportunity to fob off any potential approach by mentioning a non-existant girlfriend or lying about being unemployed and living with mum and dad. I was going to say released from prison for being a serial killer but that might turn some women on even more :-)

      What men absolutely hate is being ambushed with a proposition that they have not mentally prepared for.

      Delete
  9. Andrew-you agree with comments that this is a post of poor quality. Recently you seem to be slipping. Heart the blog but look fwd to better stuff that you have put out in the past.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. If you think it's poor enough to complain about it publicly, at least have the decency to tell me WHY it is bad, or what has changed.

      Saying that you like the blog but it's going downhill (but nothing else) is like telling your son he's turning into a fuckup, then walking into the other room and turning on the TV.

      Delete
    2. Hey Andrew, I still like the blog!i have noticed that you are a lot less active - but you said that you would be. Not every blog is everyone's favorite or as important as the next but I like that it has that kind of variety.

      P.s. can you do posts in the following subjects?
      1. Commonly most to least favored hairstyles e.g., pigtails, braids, long, short, French braid etc.
      2. If a guy seems to dig the sex but doesn't come evverytime. Does it mean he's not turned on by a girl? What's the deal ?

      Delete
    3. 1. I have posts about this stuff already. Look on the list of all posts for one called "How to Improve Your Hair" and "An Interesting Hair Experiment."

      2. Not necessarily. There could be a number of reasons why he doesn't come. When I drink a lot I can't get it up (which is a great way of my body preventing it's own bad decisions), and I have heard that some guys have performance anxiety. There also could be lubrication problems, etc. While in general, yes, a man gets an erection more easily the more attracted he is to a girl, his inability to come is not always explained this simply.

      Delete
    4. Andrew - my opinion on your recent posts and some of the subsequent comments: I think that we tend to expect these big "aha" moments whenever reading your latest entries (which happens unnervingly often!). Perhaps reading about your insights on wing women or draped necklaces doesn't quite yield a new & flashy revelation regarding primary male-female dynamics, but I still enjoyed reading these posts. Your blog provides a real guilty pleasure with plenty of thought-provoking content from your direct perspective.

      I'd also be interested to hear your thoughts on why a guy would linger at the end of an interaction to ask where you are going/what you are doing later or makes a point to tell you what he'll be doing/where he's planning on going. In my experience this usually just results in some hesitation and then going separate ways as there is no real invitation either way.

      Is this 1) just normal politeness/sociability or 2) he's hoping you catch the hint to continue on together or 3) he's not that bothered and is just "throwing the dice"?

      Delete
    5. This post was a disappointment because there was such a long gap since your last post, and the subject matter is a bit ambiguous. Some of your posts are literally outstanding, however this particular post is definitely one of your worst. The conversation relayed in the post seems a bit contrived. Who uses the word "wing woman" in informal conversation?!?!?!?1

      Delete
    6. I've heard dozens of women use it.

      the conversation is only contrived in the sense that i can't remember it verbatim. It does accurately capture the exchange though.

      Delete
    7. Honestly no-one can come up with gems all the time. Aha moments start to decline after all the interesting things have already been said. However, I visit this site and comment liberally on it because Andrew has always been so polite with commentors voicing dissent - even with the occasional troll. If you think this site is bad, you should go visit some other MRA, PUA sites - they will give you a hiding to nothing.

      Delete
    8. Agreed that the commentators should not criticize, these posts are very subjective and bias is assumed. Also, stop looking to a 28 yr old male to solve all your dating problems. That is assigning too much responsibility. I think bloggers get frustrated because they want a roadmap to results, in a reasonable time frame. No author has all the answers- or guarantees of outcomes. Neither does any therapist, priest, doctor, lawyer or parent. Neither does Dr. Phil, or Oprah. Writing and generating new dating topic material is very difficult. Few people have pent up, chronic, non-stop creativity, especially when writing is their hobby, not their job. Authors can only convey what they know and what their personal experience has taught them. The post has a main topic and sub-topics. It makes the point that women can be abrupt, ineffective, obvious, awkward and not at all keen when trying too hard to 'help'. The point was made and it is valid. Andrew also showed an example of a classy lady who was a perfect wing woman. A huge percentage of writers can go unpublished for large periods of time and only pen minimal books/articles. It is much easier to have a route skill or craft- plumbing, or carpentry, because it doesn't rely on original thought or highly subjective critiques.

      Delete
  10. What immediate things ..like if you have a date tomorrow, can a woman do to look more attractive. Is there anything instant you can do to be more of a hottie.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. if you're actually asking this question you are probably screwed beyond repair.

      Delete
    2. Instant? No, but if you have a little time: hair, makeup, high heels (read Andrew's posts on these subjects). Short skirt, conservative top. Done.

      Delete
    3. @Anonymous...agree with Joe...

      1) wear heels
      2) wear something that suits your body and really flatters it
      3) wear makeup
      4) wear dangly earrings or a drapey necklace as Andrew suggests

      Delete
    4. As a lady, I agree with the pre-date tips.

      One question, is a short skirt with heels too revealing/slutty for a first date?

      (Women in her early 30's, 5'8" & leggy so get a lot of looks when I wear short skirts -tight because I'm slim and these are most flattering).
      Thanks!!

      Delete
    5. strawberrybubblegumJune 13, 2013 at 9:27 PM

      @Anon 3.45pm

      I'm of the same height and body-type as you.

      What I do is:
      (a) if the skirt is short AND tight, I make sure to wear a loose-fit or more conservative top.

      (b) if the skirt is not bodycon, then there's more leeway to wear a fitted top or a lower neckline.

      (c) Third outfit pieces like jackets, cardigans, vests or even scarves can make a short skirt less provocative without losing any femininity points.

      (d) during daytime, I may wear wedges instead of heels. For heels, I make sure that they're not *too* high (I lovelovelove heels, but I feel anything over 5" is a little too much. My sweet spot is 3.5-4".)

      (e) make sure the skirt is not *too* short. Short enough to show off the assets, but not too short that it becomes uncomfortable and I'm in danger of flashing people.



      Nothing wrong with getting looks, imo. When I wear heels and tower over pretty much everyone (the average height where I am is like 5'9"-5'10" at the most), it's guaranteed that people will look. Just feel confident that you look great and people will be looking for the right reasons ;)

      Delete
    6. ITA with "short skirt, conservative top."

      But please beware!!!

      conservative = fitted to suit your body YAY!

      conservative = what grandmother would wear NAY


      A heals/boots with short skirt look is not slutty at all provided the upper part errs in the more conservative side. Also if wearing tight or short clothing, please wear suitable underwear. Stress on 'please wear suitable underwear'.

      Delete
    7. For the top conservative = don't be flashing your decolletage; cover the girls up.

      Alternately, if you have the assets, jeans and a revealing top is OK too.

      Delete
    8. Thanks for the tips! I think I'll go with conservative top/short skirt. At a 32D, they say what is needed even under a conservative top.

      Delete
  11. I am no wing woman... but just have to say I love that you used the word 'vacuous.'

    "Actions speak louder than words." CHEERS!

    ReplyDelete
  12. Andrew, you say we ladies shouldn't approach a guy to start, but what about down the road?

    There is a guy that pursues me constantly via text/when I see him out, but I always refuse because I want a relationship and he doesn't seem interested in commitment (dating history, player attitude). I really like him but don't want to be a cheap hookup, or get hurt by a quick/few dates (his typical scenario). Do you have any advice to help him see me as relationship material? From what I can tell, his opinion of me is that 'I'm interesting, nice, and very sexy." So what gives?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You want to date a badboy/player but don't want to get hurt and used? Seriously, can you not see how this is a bad idea? It's amazing how some people will try to rationalize anything.

      Delete
    2. @Anon, from a girls perspective, I don't think you can do anything to change his mind? If he saw you as relationship material I don't think he would only pay attention to you when you are out.

      Once he's made his mind about this he probably won't change it...it might be about timing. I know a guy who was a HUGE player 6 months ago. Today, he is a serious, committed relationship. Bizarre - but for this guy - it is likely timing.

      Delete
    3. Hmm, good points. To clarify, it is not just when I am "out." He texts me once or twice a week, with friendly "hellos," but usually of little substance (or to see if I want to hang out, but typically not a date). I've turned down a few "dates" with him because of timing/above concerns. He is a nice guy who treats me well, and we are culturally quite similar (but his story ranges from potentially wanting a relationship, to having feelings for me, to saying he only wants sex). It's been over a year, and he has yet to give up.

      Delete
    4. P.s. I should note that we dated for a couple of months when I first met him, so we've had sex but not since we broke up (which was my decision) a year ago.

      Delete
    5. You're his "back up girl". The reason he texts you to see if you want to hang out is he wants to have sex with you. Notice he doesn't ask you out on a date. He continues to chase other women, but he'll stay in contact with you on the off chance that you'll agree to have sex with him.

      His story changes from wanting a relationship to saying he only wants sex, to suit whatever he thinks you want to hear - so you'll have sex with him.

      Delete
  13. You use the word "radiance" a lot (and I noticed you used it in a comment just now). Can I ask what you mean by that concretely? When I think of the word "radiant," I think "luminous, alight, resplendent, etc." or else I picture the sun or a magnificent chandelier. But what makes a WOMAN radiant? What makes you look at or interact with a woman and go, "Woah, she is radiant." I think I'm having trouble understanding this in concrete terms. Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. If a woman lights up the room when she walks in, she's radiant.

      Delete
    2. Cheerfulness
      Confidence
      Positive attitude
      Good (upright, open) posture, showing receptivity
      Smile (openness, radiating cheerfuless)
      Dancing and graceful movement (not grinding)

      Delete
    3. I think the term "lighting up a room" is rather a tall order - a more realistic desire is for a woman to make you feel relaxed and happy in her company. I think radiant here relates to her being truly happy within herself - not glowing in the dark radiant.

      If you are a happy person, exude happiness and have happiness rub off on people around you, men and women alike will want to be with you. I can't tell you how many many times men have gone for far far less attractive women than myself, simply because they are so happy and cheerful. Made me even more grumpy and less attractive in that "radiant" way. Hard to be happy when you get passed over for far far less attractive women.

      Delete
  14. But what makes her light up a room?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 1. Physically appealing
      2. Dressed well
      3. Has a positive/ happy mood

      Delete
    2. Actually, I'd put mood first.

      Delete
    3. I wasn't ranking them so much as listing them.

      Delete
  15. Andrew,

    I've been dating quite a bit now, and a lot of men have told me "You seem low maintenance". Is this a good thing? One person mentioned he was giving me a compliment, because my response was "thanks, I think?"...what are things that you've seen girls do that make you think they are low maint? I'm not sure how I come across this way - I like wearing heels, earrings, makeup, doing my hair nicely, I like luxury goods and nice restaurants...any anecdotes about your perspective on this?

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    Replies
    1. I think that it depends on the context and how it was said.

      One meaning of high maintenance is that someone is a real pain in the ass to be around, spoiled, can't adjust to anyone else ever, demands their way always, and so forth. They also might be emotionally high maintenance, making those around them feel like they have to walk on eggshells to avoid a tantrum. So, if you are low maintenance in this regard, then that is a very good thing.

      The other meaning of high maintenance can be someone who really maintains their physical appearance. This can be good in that you look good. But if it's to an extreme that you'd never be willing to break a sweat or get a little dirt on you doing certain activities then that will be too extreme for most people.

      Overall, as long as you take good care of your appearance then being called low maintenance is likely a compliment.

      Delete
    2. @han solo,

      Ok...I think it is a compliment, I was just confused...I live in NYC and a lot of men tell me "wow, you are low maintenance, that is a great quality for a girl to have in this city" or "that is refreshing". I was semi-offended at first, because I didn't think it was a good quality. It made me think of a girl who is dowdy and wears jeans and sneakers and doesn't comb her hair (though I am exactly the opposite of that!). Thanks!

      Delete
    3. Low maintenance refers to the amount of maintenance your man has to do for you, not the maintenance you have to do for yourself. A man doesn't care how long it takes you to get ready for a date, as long as you're ready when he needs you to be ready (i.e. it doesn't make you late). If you hinder his activities (e.g. you can't be outside in the summer because it'll mess up your hair or makeup) you're high maintenance. If you like expensive food and goods, and expect him to pay for it, you're high maintenance (if you pay for it yourself, you're low maintenance). If you're emotionally well-balanced, you're low maintenance. If you require lots of reassurance, or complain a lot, you're high maintenance.

      Delete
    4. It is definitely a compliment.

      And Joe is right.

      Delete
  16. Is this a good thing ? Yes and No. There is a fine line between being low maintenance and coming across as a "low value" woman. A woman who perceives herself as low value believes that she is so undesirable that she must do whatever a man wants and to comply with all his requests in order to keep him.

    A low maintenance high value woman is a woman who does not require a man to show constant attention, who can take care of herself without having a man to take care of her all the time in all respects. She is someone who is not emotionally insecure and does not require a man to prove his love to her every minute of the day. She does not make a man jump through hoops and run around doing cartwheels to prove his love.

    Her high value comes from drawing strong boundaries on what she will and will not accept in a relationship. She will not tolerate disrespectful and bad behaviour from men or she will walk immediately. She has enough self respect to dump any man who cross that line, unafraid that she will miss the boat and end up old and alone. She has self-respect, treats herself and others with respect because she holds herself in high esteem, and she does others who do the same.

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    1. Thank you for this information, I needed to read this. I had been feeling insecure, because I was on a roller coaster relationship with a guy I met through an internet dating site.I lied on my profile and said I was 50 years old. He text me his phone number.We talked about a month or so,I fell in love with his confidence.We finally decided to meet. He lives 4 hours away and came to see me.I didn't really like his looks, but he liked mine. He kept asking me my age, until I just had to tell him. When I finally told him, my age, his mouth dropped. We saw each other several times more, and he finally dropped me.He told me he wanted someone younger.I was hurt, but I had it coming, because of my insecurity. I am now dating someone whom I met in a dating site that I posted my true age.I asked him, if he really paid attention to my profile, because I posted it how old I was. He said, he did not pay attention to that, he liked what he saw. He is 17 years younger than me, and he finds me very attractive. I am not sure if I should continue the relationship.I don't want to get hurt again, because I will eventually look old.

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    2. If a guy says that you seem to be "low maintenance", it is a compliment, end of story. It is a good thing. NO guy wants a high maintenance girl. He may tolerate it if she's hot enough, but he would prefer a low maintenance hottie over a high maintenance hottie.

      Not sure what Anon is talking about with all that "high value" stuff. I don't think there's a fine line between low maintenance and low value. The two are entirely separate issues.

      Men aren't thinking about your strong relationship boundaries and whatnot. They're just saying that they think it would be easy being in a relationship with you. It's a good thing. it's a compliment. Don't overthink it.

      As far as the 17-years-younger-guy you are dating, there is a fairly high probability that he wants to get laid first and foremost. So take care.

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    3. @ Ethan/others,

      Thanks again. I was truly curious about my original comment - everyone tells me that "low maint" is a good quality, yet, I seem to see a large # of "high maint" girls who are in relationships (including the exes of the guys I am currently dating). So I wondered if it was one of those things guys * think * they like, but actually don't (similar to how some guys think they want a girl who pursues, but in real life, they do not).

      What are high maint qualities? i.e. complaining about the dates a guy plans? not wanting to walk places? complaining about things in general?

      Delete
  17. Andrew, how is online dating supposed to ideally work? Is someone asking you out immediately ideal, because you can just 'see if you click'? Or is it better to have back and forth messaging, as to see if you have enough in common?

    I had a first online dating experience where the guy was writing long messages and txting a lot...but he never wanted to call on the phone or go out. I started to think that he perhaps did not look like his profile photo OR wasn't single. His excuse was that he was too busy to 'pick up the phone and talk' at his busy job. I dropped it, because it was too strange.

    Than, you get the guys that ask you out based on your profile. And I have heard that most guys never read anything you write, just look at photos. Is this just those guys that want to hook up? Even if your profile says 'dating and relationships' as oppose to 'activity partners' in preferences.

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    1. strawberrybubblegumJune 17, 2013 at 7:52 AM

      I don't think there's any ideal way that online dating should work. "Ideally", online dating should lead to "real life dating", but the pace with which that happens will vary depending on one's comfort level.

      My preference is for some correspondence on the dating site before meeting in person. From e-mail/exchanging messages, it gives me a sense of what kind of personality the guy has and whether we have things in common, and whether I feel it's worth taking the time to meet in person. My ideal scenarios is for the guy to "initiate" and suggest meeting in person, after we've corresponded with each other for a while.

      Those who immediately ask me out, I turn them down or ignore them because I have no interest in meeting complete and utter strangers who can't be bothered to have a short conversation before suggesting to take things offline: that's where *my* personal comfort level is at. The messaging is also a way for me to filter for the guys who just want to hook up; you can tell from the content of their messages whether they're interested in you as a person or just wanna get in your pants.

      The guy who never wanted to talk on the phone or go out, I'd say you did the right thing in dropping it. That's a red flag for sure.

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    2. Guys start out on dating sites reading profiles and sending out personalized messages. They wait for a response, realize its been three day, die a little inside, and move on to the next girl.

      This inevitably gets them nowhere, and they just start firing off generic "hellos" at every decent-looking girl in their area. If any of them respond, THEN he reads their profile.

      Or he just recognizes what a shit-filled morass online dating is, and leaves the horrible place forever.

      I don't know what kind of guy flat-out wouldn't bother to read a profile, though. That's just weird.

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  18. The only time a female friend ever "helped" me in a bar situation, it consisted of her finding the fattest girl at the bar and sending her over to me. I more-or-less ran away and never asked for her help ever again, and I still feel ashamed about how I treated the girl.

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  19. Lol. What the first woman probably would have done is what I did once for my incredibly shy guy friend. The girl was a super sweetheart while we were talking, but she straight out told me that she couldn't date a guy who couldn't come at least try to talk to her on his own. Later, there was another sitch like the one you had with Girl A and Girl B, where I tried Girl A's tactic too since I A. didn't want to make the same mistake twice and B. knew that he was a way better guy than the cocky player I knew who was trying to talk to her. She was super sweet, they were both into each other obviously, and didn't need any cheaters in her life anymore. Not to mention she was an awesome friend. So, I tried to make it smoother this time, and was happy that it worked. That was almost 3 years ago. The cheater is still a cheater, and the other 2 are still together and he's started (casually) mentioning marriage to her, which I take as a good sign <3. Only diff is that no one asked me if I was behind it all :-). So I 100% agree that that's the way to be the best "wing woman."

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  20. Hi

    I really like your blog as I have gathered many insights from the post.

    I am currently a 22 female.

    I have noticed that guys who usually hit on me are usually below their league.

    And as I hang out with them, I have observed that I am not deluded thinking that they are below my league. Not only do female and male friends around me tell me so, the guys themselves have also complimented me a lot and tell me that many men turn their heads to look at me when I am with them.

    One such possible explanation for the phenomenon could be due to the fact that I completely reject all guys that come up to me that ask for my numbers at clubs or bars as I dont think they are looking for potential marriage partners. (I am) I prefer to get to know people as friends first. However, I am not physically attracted to my guy friends.

    I know that's not a lot of information. Maybe you could shed some light on this?

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    1. *below my league

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    2. Sounds like you have a pretty high opinion of yourself.

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    3. Personally, don't reject all men just 'cause you are at a bar / club. Some may have genuine interest in getting to know you. Sure, reject those who are grinding instead of dancing or those who are smashed, but give some others a chance.

      Note that the majority of men sense when a woman is too keen to get married and consequently, run away. Men love independence and any chance of having that taken away scares them. Sure, a man will marry the right woman and will test the waters with the right woman... but you have to be the right woman first.

      I found that if you are after marriage minded men, who only date potential wives, you're better off chasing Christian (*or insert another religion here*) men. They take marriage very seriously and it doesn't take long for them to propose once they found the right wife material. You'd be amazed of how many marry their girlfriends after a year or some even after less time. (I know a number of them and no, not all Christian men believe in waiting for sex.)

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    4. I'm going to go one further and say that you sound full of yourself, and its a bit unreasonable to expect 20-something males to be thinking about marriage.

      Many guys in bars aren't looking for one-night stand; they're actually looking for someone to be in some sort of relationship with; they just don't know where else to go to do that. If this level of awkward ineptness doesn't meet your stringent standards, well, then...I don't actually have a retort to that.

      Maybe there's something about your looks or manner that makes you unintimidating to lower-quality guys, or otherwise approachable. Judgin by your post, its not your personality

      Delete
    5. Hang around one of those singy-evangelical churches, or an abstinence rally, or a bible "college," those are full of marriage-minded men.

      Your expectation of young men wanting to marry you is as unreasonable as those same young men expecting you to hook up with them for a booty call, or whatever.

      Delete
    6. Hi all.

      Thank you very much for the replies.

      To put things into perspective, I come from an Asian country (for example, China) where women who marry after they are 30 years old are considered leftovers. (Read: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21320560)

      As such, this might explain why I am looking for a marriage partner. My friends around me who are attached are all gearing their relationships towards marriage as well. However, I find Andrew's posts very useful so I believe that dating rules and human interactions transcend beyong cultural differences and geographical boundaries; hence my post. Therefore, while there are men who go only want to hook up for booty calls, I also know of men who are already thinking of wedding their girlfriends and they are around my age.

      One of the replies mentioned that "Maybe there's something about your looks or manner that makes you unintimidating to lower-quality guys, or otherwise approachable. Judgin by your post, its not your personality". Thank you for your reply. I have friends who told me the same thing. To quote, they mentioned that I am "too approachable" because I am always so "bubbly" and sends a signal that I am "easy to get" as first impression when I first know them. Is there any way I could "fix" this? It seems that sometimes I am either too aloof or too approachable. However, in no way do I pretend to act in a certain way when I am around men. I think there may be some traits about myself I have yet to discover or maybe someone could shed some light on this matter.

      Thank you all.

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  21. Andrew-this makes no real sense. I don't get it. What is the point?

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    1. The point is to stop women from trying to be something that they are almost categorically bad at - or at least to help them be one of the few that are good at it.

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  22. Oh, but I am a good wingwoman! I'm 5'9", blonde, thin, huge boobs. I go talk to the girl and work the conversation over to, "Yeah, just friends- I wish not! But he says I don't have enough 'depth' or some BS. What-EVER, amiright? More shots! Woo hoo!" Then he comes over, "All right now, we need to get you home safe." Works EVERY time. EVERY time.

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  23. the example before the last paragraph. wow.

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